Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

...
I am sorry, but after searching above I still couldnt figure out why green rail lines are not good. Doesnt green mean they work and have enough capicity left? Black is broken or not used, yellow and orange and red is higher use. So why do I have a rail line problem?

If my rail line have 12k capacity and I use around 2k every week, then it looks pretty fine to me. Also the problem never was to move enough supply. I always get 100% of what I need. The problem only is for several turns that they do not use enough trucks in my depots even though I have them plenty in my pool.

a line can be green because you have a well calibrated rail net accessing branch lines etc so the load is spread and most excess usage is cleared so its all free for the next turn. Or .. you have unused rail capacity as you lack sufficient level 2 railyards to generate the trains you need.

Since I've played the game a few times - my strong suspicion given the situation you show is that its the second situation that applies.

your combat units (incl that massive airforce commitment) may be getting what they need, but they are shedding their unit trucks to achieve it - as you are not bringing enough supply by rail to Pskov. My advice would be twofold: (a) reduce the LW commitment at such an advanced depot; and (b) reduce the supply priority of your combat HQs.

In combination that may well mean you can survive on the freight being delivered to Pskov - which will improve your mobility etc - remember that while supply < need is a problem, trucks missing from the units can have a much worse impact

[Medicusa]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

...
I am sorry, but after searching above I still couldnt figure out why green rail lines are not good. Doesnt green mean they work and have enough capicity left? Black is broken or not used, yellow and orange and red is higher use. So why do I have a rail line problem?

If my rail line have 12k capacity and I use around 2k every week, then it looks pretty fine to me. Also the problem never was to move enough supply. I always get 100% of what I need. The problem only is for several turns that they do not use enough trucks in my depots even though I have them plenty in my pool.

a line can be green because you have a well calibrated rail net accessing branch lines etc so the load is spread and most excess usage is cleared so its all free for the next turn. Or .. you have unused rail capacity as you lack sufficient level 2 railyards to generate the trains you need.

Since I've played the game a few times - my strong suspicion given the situation you show is that its the second situation that applies.

your combat units (incl that massive airforce commitment) may be getting what they need, but they are shedding their unit trucks to achieve it - as you are not bringing enough supply by rail to Pskov. My advice would be twofold: (a) reduce the LW commitment at such an advanced depot; and (b) reduce the supply priority of your combat HQs.

In combination that may well mean you can survive on the freight being delivered to Pskov - which will improve your mobility etc - remember that while supply < need is a problem, trucks missing from the units can have a much worse impact

I think I have enough rail capacity. The lowest value on the supply chain is 14000 and supply used on the rails is much much less than that. I also didnt move any units via rail and all rails appear green here. Check out this overview from the same turn:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

[Nix77]

There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

[MaB1708]

Quick question here: is there any way to expand a railyard? Other then boosting the related depot with HQ presence etc.
How does my railyard goes up in size so that I have >1 factory point?

[Medicusa]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

I dont think there is a misunderstanding. For exmaple, Riga shows a 40, which means level 4 railyard which is 40000t capacity to move 30 hexes.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: MaB1708

Quick question here: is there any way to expand a railyard? Other then boosting the related depot with HQ presence etc.
How does my railyard goes up in size so that I have >1 factory point?

It's not possible to expand railyards.

HQs don't actually boost the railyard, it just increases the depot handling capacity, which is a separate thing from the rolling stock / railing capacity the railyards offer.

You can speed up the repair of a railyard by setting priority factory repair on it. Railyards with depots are also prioritized automatically after the manually set priority repairs.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

ORIGINAL: Nix77

There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

I dont think there is a misunderstanding. For exmaple, Riga shows a 40, which means level 4 railyard which is 40000t capacity to move 30 hexes.

That 40000t capacity is probably spread all along the 30 hex area for all the depots that can reach Riga. I'm thinking that mostly the issue of front depots not receiving freight/trucks up to capacity is because you don't yet have enough local rolling stock capacity from the still damaged railyards near these depots.

As I said, I'm a bit at loss with the logistics system still, maybe I should try the Vistula to Berlin scenario where the depots and rail lines probably start getting really strained.

[MaB1708]

Thank you Nix, I was wondering and could find no answer anywhere as to how to enlarge railyards, so I was assuming you cannot. Now I know.
So as newly build depots only have a railyard size one and (almost?) all of the existing ones in the east (seen from german T1 perspective) are also level1 only in this areas I am restricted to 10K of railyard capacity tonnage basically (plus addons from other railyard within a 30 Hex radius, right?)?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: MaB1708

Thank you Nix, I was wondering and could find no answer anywhere as to how to enlarge railyards, so I was assuming you cannot. Now I know.
So as newly build depots only have a railyard size one and (almost?) all of the existing ones in the east (seen from german T1 perspective) are also level1 only in this areas I am restricted to 10K of railyard capacity tonnage basically (plus addons from other railyard within a 30 Hex radius, right?)?

not quite [;)]

as above in this thread, the game conventions don't help but there are two different rail capacities:

a) the capacity of that rail hex to enable trains to pass (so the obv is dual/single track), this gets used up as trains go up and down (with units or freight) and over time it becomes more costly (ie less trains pass that point) as usage increases
b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks). Unfortunately we refer to this as rail capacity too

a level 1 railyard will end up generating a depot with the capacity to process 10k of freight - which you can enhance by HQ placement

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77
...
As I said, I'm a bit at loss with the logistics system still, maybe I should try the Vistula to Berlin scenario where the depots and rail lines probably start getting really strained.

I'd enthusiastically endorse this idea.

the problem in 1941 is that you have a set of discrete rail lines and depot systems, so that is a particular problem but you are not trying to supply that large an army.

VtB, you have a relativel connected rail net but a lot of men and tanks to support, so its a bit more of a brute force problem. I think its a great scenario in its own right but it really shows the interaction of rail yard capacity, super-depots etc and you can see the practical advantages.

[ranknfile]

ORIGINAL: Nix77


...

As I said, I'm a bit at loss with the logistics system still, maybe I should try the Vistula to Berlin scenario where the depots and rail lines probably start getting really strained.

It's the scenario I'm using to learn the game; and it has become - at turn 8 - very much a "manage the logistics" exercise. An enjoyable one however!

[MaB1708]

ORIGINAL: loki100


not quite [;)]

as above in this thread, the game conventions don't help but there are two different rail capacities:

a) the capacity of that rail hex to enable trains to pass (so the obv is dual/single track), this gets used up as trains go up and down (with units or freight) and over time it becomes more costly (ie less trains pass that point) as usage increases
b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks). Unfortunately we refer to this as rail capacity too

a level 1 railyard will end up generating a depot with the capacity to process 10k of freight - which you can enhance by HQ placement

This has clicked now, thank you!

May I ask (from the manual 22.4.3) is that
"During each logistics phase, accumulated friendly
rail line usage in each hex is reduced to the higher of
either current rail usage divided by six or the enemy air
interdiction value (the actual value of this is shown in a
hex pop-up) times 500, with the latter being maxed out at
45,000 tons of rail line usage. In cases where there is no
enemy air interdiction, at the start of the movement phase
the max rail line usage will be 5,000 tons (for a dual track
line and 2,000 for a single track line)."
the formula to roughly calculate the rail tonnage/capacity per Hex carryover from one turn to the next? Does it mean no matter how overutilzed you had your capacity, the next turn the preset utilisation is never higher as 2000 (single track) or 5000 (double track) resp.?

[loki100]

I presume so, in that it says that (if its wrong I'll complain to the author [8D]). If you ignore air interdiction, usage penalties stop at 30k, so 30/6 = 5k carried over.

You can have >5k if there is interdiction - while the manual mentions air, Soviet partisans operate the same way.

So that is one way in which partisans can have a sustained impact, especially if you are already running your rail net at capacity.

The 5k may not sound much but you are immediately paying 2 SMP per hex before anything moves, so the notional 200 hex range is getting chopped back.

[MaB1708]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I presume so, in that it says that (if its wrong I'll complain to the author [8D]). If you ignore air interdiction, usage penalties stop at 30k, so 30/6 = 5k carried over.

You can have >5k if there is interdiction - while the manual mentions air, Soviet partisans operate the same way.

So that is one way in which partisans can have a sustained impact, especially if you are already running your rail net at capacity.

The 5k may not sound much but you are immediately paying 2 SMP per hex before anything moves, so the notional 200 hex range is getting chopped back.

Don't blame the author, I hear he is a friendly and helpful guy
Still, I do not understand this paragraph. Para 1 of 22.4.3 talks about SMP penalties and is clear. This next para - the one I quoted - I cannot understand, does that mean that in any case if no enemy interdiction is at work rail tonnage/capacity usage is at 5K or ONLY if SMP have been used? Has nothing to do with non-SMP rail usage, so if no SMP has been used on any given rail hex all this does not apply and any carry-over I might see next turn is from non-SMP freight transport and normal unit movement?

"I presume so, in that it says that" - I see Please bear with me, english is not my native tongue and in complex matters like this it is not easy at times to grab the impact, even if you get all the words right

[James80]

b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks).

Is there any way to see the issue if I run out of train capacity? I know I can see all my lvl 2+ railyards in f2 mode but that doesn't help me to see if I run out of it.
And is there a way to see enemy lvl 2+ railyards (to plan my advances)

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: MaB1708

ORIGINAL: loki100

I presume so, in that it says that (if its wrong I'll complain to the author [8D]). If you ignore air interdiction, usage penalties stop at 30k, so 30/6 = 5k carried over.

You can have >5k if there is interdiction - while the manual mentions air, Soviet partisans operate the same way.

So that is one way in which partisans can have a sustained impact, especially if you are already running your rail net at capacity.

The 5k may not sound much but you are immediately paying 2 SMP per hex before anything moves, so the notional 200 hex range is getting chopped back.

Don't blame the author, I hear he is a friendly and helpful guy
Still, I do not understand this paragraph. Para 1 of 22.4.3 talks about SMP penalties and is clear. This next para - the one I quoted - I cannot understand, does that mean that in any case if no enemy interdiction is at work rail tonnage/capacity usage is at 5K or ONLY if SMP have been used? Has nothing to do with non-SMP rail usage, so if no SMP has been used on any given rail hex all this does not apply and any carry-over I might see next turn is from non-SMP freight transport and normal unit movement?

"I presume so, in that it says that" - I see Please bear with me, english is not my native tongue and in complex matters like this it is not easy at times to grab the impact, even if you get all the words right

yes, the key to that para is (for double track rail) existing usage is divided by 5k to place a residual usage in the hex that carries into the next turn. So if you made no use, then there is nothing.

It is that residual usage you see at the start of the turn in the logistics map mode

air/partisan interdiction is slower to clear and in addition.

ORIGINAL: James80

b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks).

Is there any way to see the issue if I run out of train capacity? I know I can see all my lvl 2+ railyards in f2 mode but that doesn't help me to see if I run out of it.
And is there a way to see enemy lvl 2+ railyards (to plan my advances)

in the movement phase yes, in an extreme case you will lack the local SMP to entrain the unit at all, or it might entrain and only be able to move a few hexes - but that isn't really a planning tool per se more a warning that you have drawn on the local train stocks.

the problem is in the logistics phase where all this goes on out of sight, the discussion in the player's notes may help a bit to understand what is happening but you'll never actually see it.

not readily but it would be useful - one option is to open the game as the Soviets (or use the editor) and you can sort the Commander's Report to show locations-industry and then sort by railyard size. That list can be useful. You can see what you've captured in your own version of that tab, it'll show the railyard size even if it is not currently hooked into the rail net.

F2 gives some functionality but its similar to the CR view

[Nix77]

I have added a feature suggestion to add railyard size indication to Shift-L (Friendly factory location) and Shift-T (Strategic recon) views.

[dudefan]

i think it would be nice to see the 30mp range railyard capacity if i hover over a railline. OR any other way to assess the situation

[MaB1708]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

Am I not mistaken that
1. Rail line capacity will almost not run out (if rolling stock available) even if the nominal amount (30K double-/12K single-track plus/minus any adjustments) is reached- if there is enough trains it will continue to be utilized but with quickly growing penalties.
2. Railing capacity/Rolling Stock: the moment my railing capacity within the 30-hexes "pool" is used up there is no more shipping via rail from that yard.
3. "30 hexes" is the radius railing capacity is drawn from to enable any transport. It does not mean that rail transport from a given railyard is limited to 30 hexes, right?

[loki100]

1+2 - correct

3 - you are right, its not the range the unit/freight can move. Everything gets 200 SMP (reduced for already spent MP), so it can move up to 200 rail hexes as long as there are no cost penalties.