Axis Minors in Soviet Garrison - TOE Max enforced...

[AlbertN]

Greetings, and here comes the new problem.

IF this is WAD probably it is the ... bad concept of what is WAD.
And it is only accrued by the fact the Axis Reserve presently is bugged.

In the Soviet Garrison - pratically the only Theather Box where some Axis minors can go - there is an enforced max on the TOE.



I may well want this Hungarian security unit at 100%, so it works well as security unit. But I cannot. I'd have to ... pull it into reserve, refit it up, and bring it in there again.
Redundant clicks and meaningless chore and micromanagement in terms of design.

If units get in there with 100 TOE, they dwindle and dwindle down til they get under their max.
The Slovak Security has 65 even as TOE max...

Here a Romanian division that was refitted and slowly dwindle down.



But rest assured, the German Divisions are 100 TOE. A well groomed and cultivated Security division that spanked many Fortified Zones and Isolated Soviets in the first turns.



The problem is only accrued as:

A) Axis Allies are too weak (elaborated by many and dismissed as issue) to be on map thus their BEST USE is to send them all in the Soviet Garrison.
B) Thus Axis Allies are further weakened (or peaking Micromanagement need) by enforcing a cap of TOE where it is absolutely not necessary, in fact I believe any Axis player want them to be at 100 ToE in the Soviet Garrison...
C) ... because present gameplay flow suggests to swap in Garrison your Axis Minors; send the German Sicherung Divisions elsewhere (ie. Norway or Balkans) and draw from there regular formations that have real combat power (Because Axis minors do not).



So this is either another 'WAD' type of design aimed to punish further the Axis Allies in their last remaining role (Anti Partisan) - if I rule out 'digging forts and prevent them from decaying'; and the other indirect rules, as per eating your freight and providing victories for Guard promotions to the opponent...
Or as I hope it was something simply not throught through in terms of gameplay - and thus an error to be rectified.

Ps: If you wonder why my German security divisions are still there it's because right now I am trying to play fair as my Soviet opponent is not invoking all of the Soviet superpowers.

[AlbertN]

Adding...

Moving Romanian units from Garrison TB to AR TB lowers their max ToE to 65 and units shed immediately the excess. Requiring ulterior refit. But mostly they she experienced elements.

This I doubt it is even remotely right.

[Joel Billings]

We have this on our list to adjust the Axis Allies separate of the Germans.

[AlbertN]

We have this on our list to adjust the Axis Allies separate of the Germans.

Good to know it's a bug - they should all be 100 TOE in Garrison and Axis Reserves (would be better if both TB would enable human TOE management)

[DarkHorse2]

Adding...

Moving Romanian units from Garrison TB to AR TB lowers their max ToE to 65 and units shed immediately the excess. Requiring ulterior refit. But mostly they she experienced elements.

This I doubt it is even remotely right.

Along those lines, I am noticing their max TOEs get dropped to 80, automatically, around Spring of 1942.

WiET2_SG_TOEMax.JPG (479.97 KiB) Viewed 452 times

[AlbertN]

This seems quite urgent to me.

It's not just a matter of Axis minors anyhow, I'd neither want in '42 Germans in Italy to have a 65 TOE.
AND it automatically brings the shedding of the extra elements off. Or the start of that process. It is not only the Cuneense that did it but others are still at 100...

Here the case of the Cuneense Division that is to get in Russia later.

The division stripped off 35% of its 70 Experience elements - and will get replaced with subpar less experienced ones.
Multiply this for all type of effects and situations.



Mobile units - MOT and ARM are still 100 TOE though. Mountain, Infantry, etc - dropped.

Finland TB is exactly the same, all Finnish units are 65 TOE.



Here Finnish troops demobilizing , and ontop of the whole ordeal, as Italy is demobilizing too - VP loss!



Then the other question is ... how MAX ToE is set in TBs?
There is no human control (and I reiterate - it would be best that there is human control for it).
There is a problem that units immediately start shedding ToE elements. EVEN with a max ToE of 65 I may want to send a unit to West to refit. Or a 100 ToE unit to Finland to bolster the % of Ground Combat. IF it automatically drops to 65 and thus loses CV I am kind of need to send 2 units (of an already limited allocation of units) there.

I understand there was a problem - that TBs were receiving replacements and denying them to the map.
IF this was the solution to that, it created another problem instead of solving one.

Solution A is to allow human control over ToEs of units in TBs. That would be best.

Solution B is to have the TBs have a priority level that human can set - and let all TOEs to 100.

Solution C is to have TBs drain a % of replacements depending per year and per nation (think that was what WITE1 did roughly)

Solution D is to have TBs claim resources and replacements only when their % drops under 90 or 100 % with priority over the map. (If they have units that can get replacements, that's it)

NEXT:
Need some fix that brings the TOEs back up for games that had already that TOE max changed.

[Joel Billings]

It is 100% WAD that players cannot control TOE's of units in the non-reserve TBs. For the Axis, these TOE's change as the German manpower in the pool changes. What we need to do is delink the TOE change of Axis Allies from the German manpower pool and instead make them a function of their own national manpower pools. That is on the list to do. The other thing we need to do is to make sure that units that are transferred into the non-reserve TBs revert to 100% Max TOE before they then adjust based on their manpower pool. Those are the planned changes. We do not play to give players the ability to change Max TOEs in the reserve boxes. One problem with doing that is that players could abuse this to drop below the 90% of requirements that the game currently enforces (by preventing withdrawals that would put the player under 90%).

[AlbertN]

It is 100% WAD that players cannot control TOE's of units in the non-reserve TBs. For the Axis, these TOE's change as the German manpower in the pool changes. What we need to do is delink the TOE change of Axis Allies from the German manpower pool and instead make them a function of their own national manpower pools. That is on the list to do. The other thing we need to do is to make sure that units that are transferred into the non-reserve TBs revert to 100% Max TOE before they then adjust based on their manpower pool. Those are the planned changes. We do not play to give players the ability to change Max TOEs in the reserve boxes. One problem with doing that is that players could abuse this to drop below the 90% of requirements that the game currently enforces (by preventing withdrawals that would put the player under 90%).

I got what you try to say - I think it's highly disfunctional.
Finland manpower goes low at some point and their units drop in ToE? What for? They do not have manpower anyhow (if it is that low) to replenish them even if they were TOE100.
Technically Axis Minors could be left down to 100 ToE persistently. They're very limited in which TB they can get anyhow.

I'd still have a different approach though.

Leave all TOEs to 100; and if suddenly % in a TB drops under X, that TB has a priority in replacements over Map / other TBs.

Rationale:

Map and Reserves TB have by default the priority. (AR refit, Map refit, AR, Map, other TBs)
If a TB has no combat, pretty much all units can sit there and remain at 100 ToE. (ie. West or Norway at the start!). The player cannot actively bring units away to get under 90%. -- That works. Cannot be abused.
If a TB has combat - somewhen at some point, without replacements or new units coming in, their % will drop under 100 or 90. Then said TB asks for replacements AND gets them before they get on map.

Example: 1944, Italy has 93% on TurnX, with losses in TurnX+1 it goes to 91%, and in TurnX+2 it goes to 89. In turn X+2 Italy TB will demand replacements and get them. It may leave the map dry some - yes. But for whole turns Italy got none. It may bump Italy to 95% - then Italy will be fine for a while.

That way a player can still decide IF to send replacements or send a unit down there to augment the %.

I mean - in the end of the day there are many solutions, but the one that you exposed, Joel - to me it's simply not going to work.
Especially as units ditch their assets as soon as their ToE is lowered.
It will factually spell disaster - the time you have 100 ToE units moved to reinforce say West '44. You just refitted that unit in the Reserve AND decide to send it West. That unit suddenly drops from 100 ToE to whichever the West Front enforces.
The 'going to 100 max and then adjusts to manpower level' will simply delay what of above of 1-2 turns or whichever is the time needed to adjust ToE max %.

Edit: Example of what will transpire with link to Manpower

1943 or 1944!
German manpower is low. System notices and lowers the Max ToE in all the TBs relevant from 100 to ... 80?
Troops begin to shed 10-20% of their TOE (assuming some are damaged already a bit?)
Stockpiles skyrocket.
Production sees lots of guns suddenly in stock. Guns are not produced that turn.
% of the TB suddenly drops, because a large % of the troops were suddenly sent home.
Axis player gets VP loss and AP loss events here and there.
Axis player cannot adjust Max ToE and can't really send new divisions there because ... they do not have them.
System notices that suddenly there is more manpower at hand in the Pool - because hey, all TBs just sent in 10-20% of their business.
System raises up to the next step the Max ToE. Back to 100?

But even with a more granular approach of 5% steps - I can see the system just not functioning in an appreciated way.

Players in general want functionality, not the opposite.

[DarkHorse2]

OMG, FI TB got dropped to 65 Max TOE.

And this is supposed to be triggered off of available manpower reserves?

My manpower reserves are the highest ever now. You guys sure this is WAD?

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WiET2_FI_TOEMag.JPG (372.86 KiB) Viewed 388 times

WiET2_Manpower_Pool.JPG (348.9 KiB) Viewed 388 times

[DarkHorse2]

Just in looking at the current production for Finland....

In my game, they have twice as much manpower in their pool than they have cumulatively produced to date!

WAD?

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WiTE2_FI_Manpower.JPG (55.84 KiB) Viewed 386 times

[AlbertN]

Right now -everything- that is NON Motorized and Axis Minor drops to 65 since Turn 2.
And that is part of the .25 (stable) patch.

I just went to the .24 to continue games.

It will be a hurdle as I've to take some VP losses in my Axis game, rotate all Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, etc in Axis reserves and up their ToE and send them back to their respective TBs.
Good it came at least at the end of Soviet Winter so I've a bunch of panzers refitting helping some with percentages.

Finland alas has all units locked in the TB. So I'll be taking VP losses or so because of Finland unless I send in fresh German formations.

I'll have to hope in a quick hotpatch or so fixing the business; at least undoing the .25 changes AND with a script that ups the max ToE to 100 back or Finns cannot be touched at all as they're all locked in their TB.

That is why I've said it's an urgent matter - and this is part of the non beta patch.
Just the wider majority of players do not notice because it is coming slowly or late and the shedding of ToE may not be immediate or it's random.

[DarkHorse2]

You know, those Axis Allied are a real game changer...

Completely OP.

They have to nerf them or risk play balance.

[Joel Billings]

No, 65 Max TOE for Finns in 1941 is not WAD. I see it happening in my AI test game. Not sure what caused this, but we will look at it soon. Unfortunately, Pavel is away on vacation so no version can be put out for at least another 10+ days.

[AlbertN]

It's not just Finns - Italians too and prolly at this stage any other Axis Minor as well in case they get into a TB goes to 65 if non Motorized. Or non 100 anyhow in '41 as well.
From Turn 2. I had to test backward patches to see where I could play actively.

But yes - it's clear it is a bug and that is non intended. At least to me.

[Joel Billings]

For me, in a test game, the Finns changed on turn 4 to 65. The Italians changed later to 80. It makes no sense why this is going on since AFAIK, it was all pegged on the German pool (which was an oversight to begin with). The good news is it takes time for those units in the reserve to lose strength. In my AI games, even 9 months into the game most Finnish units were at 90% of TOE and they were over the CV requirement. Obviously a bug that needs to be fixed, but at the same time, we need to improve it so that each country adjusts in the non-reserve boxes from default of 100 when their manpower pool gets low. We will get this sorted out.

Now for German players looking for a boost, a few days ago Gary found that for some unknown reason the Axis side had been left out of a big chunk of the reserve box logistics phase operations. They were not dealing with their damaged elements, nor were they gaining morale or experience as they should have been. I am testing the change for this now. This was probably not noticed and not a huge item because the Germans don't use the reserve box as much as the Soviets. Later in the war though, as the front gets closer to German and there are more destroyed units being rebuilt and new poor units being raised, the Germans were losing out because of this. Assuming the change checks out, this will be fixed in the next update. Thanks to those that continued to bring up the issue with specific examples.

[DarkHorse2]

I agree with @AlertN and feel this is a case where WiTE2 tried to be too clever.

Don't see any need to arbitrarily reduced the Max TOEs of Axis Allied TB units. (especially Finland - which is 100% TB units)

If the Axis Allied country is truly suffering from lack of Manpower, this will handle itself automatically by not delivering reinforcement to the TB units anyways.

If the "enhanced TB" option is enabled by a user, then I would expect the player to have some control over the Max TOE unit values.

[DarkHorse2]

For me, in a test game, the Finns changed on turn 4 to 65. The Italians changed later to 80. It makes no sense why this is going on since AFAIK, it was all pegged on the German pool (which was an oversight to begin with). The good news is it takes time for those units in the reserve to lose strength. In my AI games, even 9 months into the game most Finnish units were at 90% of TOE and they were over the CV requirement. Obviously a bug that needs to be fixed, but at the same time, we need to improve it so that each country adjusts in the non-reserve boxes from default of 100 when their manpower pool gets low. We will get this sorted out.

Now for German players looking for a boost, a few days ago Gary found that for some unknown reason the Axis side had been left out of a big chunk of the reserve box logistics phase operations. They were not dealing with their damaged elements, nor were they gaining morale or experience as they should have been. I am testing the change for this now. This was probably not noticed and not a huge item because the Germans don't use the reserve box as much as the Soviets. Later in the war though, as the front gets closer to German and there are more destroyed units being rebuilt and new poor units being raised, the Germans were losing out because of this. Assuming the change checks out, this will be fixed in the next update. Thanks to those that continued to bring up the issue with specific examples.

Unfortunately, I do not believe you are entirely correct.

The places where I see the most extreme TOE drops are those that involve a unit TOE upgrade. (like most do in '42).

Then, the units nearly immediately drop to the current MAX TOE values sets.

WiTE2_TB_TOEs.JPG (435.54 KiB) Viewed 316 times

[DarkHorse2]

AlbertN is correct on the Max TOE droppage occurring on turn 2(at least in my game as well).

(IT TB, FI TB, NA TB)

However, I did not really notice it until the units went through their big TOE upgrades later....

Which is unfortunate, as on T2, the Axis Allied Manpower pools are barely formed.

WiTE_T2_Manpower.JPG (42.74 KiB) Viewed 310 times

[AlbertN]

IF a ToE 65 (or whatever) unit is moved in the Axis Reserve, also it will immediately shed the whole of its extra elements.
On the spot. As soon as it enters the Axis reserves.

Glad we're in 2 at least to think the Axis minors surely need not ToE control - when they're out of manpower they're out of manpower.