Game Ruined because of Winter

[Mike Donner]

Before i say my piece I want to tell the youtube commenters that want to regurgitate what they heard from a documentary, or read from an Alan Clark book, to save it. I'm aware of the winter of 41,42. I have read war reports and non mainstream books that I believe give a more accurate picture of the winter than modern revisionist "history" books or shows. I have no desire to debate that issue, I'm here to say this game is flawed and ruined because of the "first winter rules".

The game does not allow the Germans the option to prepare for a soviet winter offensive, no matter how much you have preserved your strength or where you create a defensive line. The game makes Soviet forces immune to all penalties put on the Germans and gives unrealistic combat bonuses to them, so they can have a breakthrough. I imagine so most gamers can tell themselves "Wow, this is just like the documentary I watched!" The game gives the Germans 4+ months of blizzard weather with level 7 snow on EVERY hex, from Leningrad to Crimea, and everywhere in between. The designers took the most extreme conditions during one day from a small part of the front and applied it to the whole German side of the map. For months!
Every German airbase is grounded for 4+ months ONLY on the German side, again no matter where the line is or where the airbase is located. Let me emphasize: ONLY on the German side, the Soviets can launch aircraft on their side of the line.
The biggest joke of all is what this weather does to tanks. My God. Moving, just MOVING, a FRESH tank division disables 85% of the tanks making those units totally worthless during the WHOLE winter. Keeping them stationary inside a level 3 fort? NOPE. Still worthless. All the while Soviet tanks seem to have no penalty. And I could go on...

This is a total waste of an otherwise enjoyably detailed game. I was looking forward to a 42 offensive, but I'll never get there because the game wants to "recreate history" from a documentary, or some stupid crap. What a joke, what a waste. Game ruined.

[ShaggyHiK]

Your German whining is like sugar.

When you stop destroying not real 4k Soviet aircraft in 1 day, come talk, buffed player for the German side.

[Veterin]

Before i say my piece I want to tell the youtube commenters that want to regurgitate what they heard from a documentary, or read from an Alan Clark book, to save it. I'm aware of the winter of 41,42. I have read war reports and non mainstream books that I believe give a more accurate picture of the winter than modern revisionist "history" books or shows. I have no desire to debate that issue, I'm here to say this game is flawed and ruined because of the "first winter rules".

The game does not allow the Germans the option to prepare for a soviet winter offensive, no matter how much you have preserved your strength or where you create a defensive line. The game makes Soviet forces immune to all penalties put on the Germans and gives unrealistic combat bonuses to them, so they can have a breakthrough. I imagine so most gamers can tell themselves "Wow, this is just like the documentary I watched!" The game gives the Germans 4+ months of blizzard weather with level 7 snow on EVERY hex, from Leningrad to Crimea, and everywhere in between. The designers took the most extreme conditions during one day from a small part of the front and applied it to the whole German side of the map. For months!
Every German airbase is grounded for 4+ months ONLY on the German side, again no matter where the line is or where the airbase is located. Let me emphasize: ONLY on the German side, the Soviets can launch aircraft on their side of the line.
The biggest joke of all is what this weather does to tanks. My God. Moving, just MOVING, a FRESH tank division disables 85% of the tanks making those units totally worthless during the WHOLE winter. Keeping them stationary inside a level 3 fort? NOPE. Still worthless. All the while Soviet tanks seem to have no penalty. And I could go on...

This is a total waste of an otherwise enjoyably detailed game. I was looking forward to a 42 offensive, but I'll never get there because the game wants to "recreate history" from a documentary, or some stupid crap. What a joke, what a waste. Game ruined.

Sorry but i have to disagree with you here. The "normal" play is to send any AFV units to the reserve/western TB over winter and pull infantry out on map. Axis can 100% prepare for winter it just needs... well preparation. you can't expect the turn to just tick over to winter and you're ready to defend. You need to plan ahead.

I'm still learning Axis but in my last 3 games, Soviets have either skipped their winter offensive or stopped it early due to strong axis defence.

[Wiedrock]

We're home at Christmas.

[Edmon]

Your German whining is like sugar.

When you stop destroying not real 4k Soviet aircraft in 1 day, come talk, buffed player for the German side.

Please do not write such hostile comments in the future. It is flame-bait and will only lead to problems.

I'm sure there is a better way to get your point across.

Thanks,
Edmon

[K62]

In preparation for winter, I suggest retracting the Panzer divisions to East Prussia and positioning the infantry to fortify their positions (they can build up to level 3 forts next to enemy hexes or with support from rear fortified areas) as near as feasible to amply supplied depots, ideally within horse supply distance (3 hexes). Such defensive lines are very challenging for Soviet forces to penetrate. If you make it through December it gets much easier, with Axis penalties decreasing substantially in January and further in February.

[Fraggo5]

The "brick wall" of the first winter is a pain but as other posts before this one have stated you can work through it.
On my first couple of play throughs of the G.C I was hit hard but I learnt , now I am able to navigate my way through and come out the other side with some half decent forces to pursue offensives in 42.
One particular campaign I managed to keep hitting the Soviet forces on the line throughout the winter to the effect that they didn't have an effective response to my spring offensive. Admittedly this has been against the A.I and not a more savvy human opponent.
You state

Mike Donner wrote: ↑
This is a total waste of an otherwise enjoyably detailed game. I was looking forward to a 42 offensive, but I'll never get there because the game wants to "recreate history" from a documentary, or some stupid crap. What a joke, what a waste. Game ruined.

Well, we all have our opinions and this game is no walkover however you play it.
It does take a lot of time and effort to get the reward and maybe its just not for you

[SpicyJuan]

Is there no option to have a "mild winter"? I know Decisive Campagins: Barbarossa includes this feature.

IMO this should be a feature in the game since changing weather is a very standard thing when engaging in hypotheticals and counterfactuals and greatly increases replayability. For example, in addition to having a "mild winter" option, it would be interesting to have a "dry autumn" where the fall rains come much later and are less severe, allowing the Germans several more precious weeks of campaigning season.

[MechFO]

Before i say my piece I want to tell the youtube commenters that want to regurgitate what they heard from a documentary, or read from an Alan Clark book, to save it. I'm aware of the winter of 41,42. I have read war reports and non mainstream books that I believe give a more accurate picture of the winter than modern revisionist "history" books or shows. I have no desire to debate that issue, I'm here to say this game is flawed and ruined because of the "first winter rules".

The game does not allow the Germans the option to prepare for a soviet winter offensive, no matter how much you have preserved your strength or where you create a defensive line. The game makes Soviet forces immune to all penalties put on the Germans and gives unrealistic combat bonuses to them, so they can have a breakthrough. I imagine so most gamers can tell themselves "Wow, this is just like the documentary I watched!" The game gives the Germans 4+ months of blizzard weather with level 7 snow on EVERY hex, from Leningrad to Crimea, and everywhere in between. The designers took the most extreme conditions during one day from a small part of the front and applied it to the whole German side of the map. For months!
Every German airbase is grounded for 4+ months ONLY on the German side, again no matter where the line is or where the airbase is located. Let me emphasize: ONLY on the German side, the Soviets can launch aircraft on their side of the line.
The biggest joke of all is what this weather does to tanks. My God. Moving, just MOVING, a FRESH tank division disables 85% of the tanks making those units totally worthless during the WHOLE winter. Keeping them stationary inside a level 3 fort? NOPE. Still worthless. All the while Soviet tanks seem to have no penalty. And I could go on...

This is a total waste of an otherwise enjoyably detailed game. I was looking forward to a 42 offensive, but I'll never get there because the game wants to "recreate history" from a documentary, or some stupid crap. What a joke, what a waste. Game ruined.

I find the combat malus, especially given it's only defensive and not offensive, runs counter to any common sense.

A concentration on supply and fatigue penalties would make more sense and lead to better more coherent system.

[exalted]

I'm not a fan of the winter rules as currently set up but it is fairly easy at least against the AI to have offensive momentum last well into january-februari after which both sides are generally so completely worn out there is a paus in fighting for a while which comes pretty naturally before a spring/summer offensive.

Personally I'm against using the supply ponies aka being within 3 hexes of depots anywhere your supply situation isn't perfect for the first winter you get better results being 4 hexes from depots unless your some kind of master of logistics.

[DarkHorse2]

Not a huge fan of the "undocumented rules" regarding the 1st Winter, as I feel the penalties to supply and the added attrition should be able to appropriately model the impact on the German forces. (which also seems to erode German troop morale as well...)

But, for whatever reason, the devs didn't think so and also included the following hard-coded CV penalties too.

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WiTE2_FirstWinter.JPG (94.51 KiB) Viewed 1710 times

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It is not as bad as it seems againt the AI. Against a human Soviet? Seems rather scary....

IIRC, Germany actually suffered more losses during the opening stages of Barbarossa than during the 1st Winter.

[MechFO]

Just to illustrate in what conditions the historic Winter victories took place below is the strength report of the 5th Panzer Division on 13.11.1941

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

less than a thousand men, 17 MG, no artillery, 50 tanks, 40 trucks

at this point it was still advancing, the counter attacks were 2 weeks away.

[hossjww30]

I don't understand why in WitE1 you had a choice of normal winter in '41-'42 but not this version. You also had the choice of random or historical weather during the entire game.

Even so, I kinda agree with the original poster in that the harsh winter is a little too harsh. How can it be possible to have blizzard conditions for three consecutive months?

[tm1]

I don't understand why in WitE1 you had a choice of normal winter in '41-'42 but not this version. You also had the choice of random or historical weather during the entire game.

Even so, I kinda agree with the original poster in that the harsh winter is a little too harsh. How can it be possible to have blizzard conditions for three consecutive months?

Yes I remember there was both those choices in the start up screen however the choice of a moderate first winter option was not originally there it was implemented in one of the later patches.
Also in WITE 1 it was just mud, no light mud or heavy mud like WITE2, once mud hits in WITE1 you were virtually in stand still mode, with the new weather system light mud allows greater movement and combat.
Also you must remember in WITE1 you had first winter penalties blizzard or no blizzard I think, here you can catch weeks just very very cold but not suffer to bad.
Sounds like some of your games you were unlucky with a blizzard roll.

When WITE2 came out both issues were addressed on why the first penalties were as they were, also later 2 by 3 games asked for players to put forward and invited to players to create a weather map forecast system or something to that nature to produce a alternative weather system that could be implemented at a later date, don't know how that is progressing at this time.

As bad as the first winter penalties are I will deal with them, what I cant fathom ( though a fellow WITE 2 player explained to me in detail the issues and why ) is the rail penalty during the whole of 41 to April 42.

4th Pz Armee historically was railed from the North to centre for operation typhoon, stayed for the Russian counter attack then went South for the 42 drive, however It takes me anywhere from 3 to 6 months just to get the dam Armee from North to South and nothing in between, seems like 4th Pz Armee's real life counterpart had trains with hyper drive engines.

[homer82]

I find it ironic someone with the last name "Donner" would take issue with blizzards and a harsh winter.

[dankhippos]

To be fair buddy you have valid complaints. German tanks see snow and explode. Soviets get to keep using planes with relatively little few ops losses. I recommend you keep playing as 42 will have you back on the attack. Yes winter is annoying. For my piece, I would say the game leaves in more Axis troubles than Soviet ones. Your Axis rail sucks, but Soviet troops are teeming with supply. Vasily is always well fed. Game has issues but they can be overcome. Next winter, send the tanks away and bring infantry to map. All in all, I think you shouldn't throw the game down just because of winter.

[MarkShot]

Sorry, every time I read the title I think:

"S**t Climate Change has gone too far when it is destroying GG's masterpiece WITE-2!"

Yes, I know, I am an idiot.

[Habfan24]

As a you can see from the number of post I'm not a big poster. However, thought I'd share my experience with the Blizzard of 41. In my first campaign I was stunned by this and can sympathize with the OP. Manny objects were broken that day and I rage quit. So, in my second campaign I was extremely cautious and since I didn't read victory section of the manual suddenly I lose, by it turns out 2 VP and more objects were broken. So now in my third campaign its fall 42 and I'm almost at 700 VP. There are definitely gamey aspects of the WITE2 that you MUST learn and take advantage of if you are to succeed and swapping your armor for infantry beginning in October 41 is a MUST do.

[exalted]

As a you can see from the number of post I'm not a big poster. However, thought I'd share my experience with the Blizzard of 41. In my first campaign I was stunned by this and can sympathize with the OP. Manny objects were broken that day and I rage quit. So, in my second campaign I was extremely cautious and since I didn't read victory section of the manual suddenly I lose, by it turns out 2 VP and more objects were broken. So now in my third campaign its fall 42 and I'm almost at 700 VP. There are definitely gamey aspects of the WITE2 that you MUST learn and take advantage of if you are to succeed and swapping your armor for infantry beginning in October 41 is a MUST do.

I'd certainly recommend playing no early ending in the first few campaigns so you don't have to bother with sudden losses and simply can play the game as you like.

While I'd agree that you must take advantage of how the game works to get the best result, swapping all armor for infantry during first winter usually results in having a very hard time getting them back into action before summer 42 again, I'd say at most half your armor to WE for inf and simply live with the losses the rest will take. You have plenty of panzer replacement battalions to make up the difference and lots of "bad" tanks that you want to change out anyway might as well use them up.

[Veterin]

As a you can see from the number of post I'm not a big poster. However, thought I'd share my experience with the Blizzard of 41. In my first campaign I was stunned by this and can sympathize with the OP. Manny objects were broken that day and I rage quit. So, in my second campaign I was extremely cautious and since I didn't read victory section of the manual suddenly I lose, by it turns out 2 VP and more objects were broken. So now in my third campaign its fall 42 and I'm almost at 700 VP. There are definitely gamey aspects of the WITE2 that you MUST learn and take advantage of if you are to succeed and swapping your armor for infantry beginning in October 41 is a MUST do.

I'd certainly recommend playing no early ending in the first few campaigns so you don't have to bother with sudden losses and simply can play the game as you like.

While I'd agree that you must take advantage of how the game works to get the best result, swapping all armor for infantry during first winter usually results in having a very hard time getting them back into action before summer 42 again, I'd say at most half your armor to WE for inf and simply live with the losses the rest will take. You have plenty of panzer replacement battalions to make up the difference and lots of "bad" tanks that you want to change out anyway might as well use them up.

I disagree with this. Yes I takes some time to get AFVs on map but it’s very achievable with planning. You don’t actually need to send any of the infantry back to the TB as new formations are raised. You can transfer 3-4 panzers across the rails each turn so If you start late feb/early March, that’s plenty of time for these units to reach the frontline and build up cpp/supply