Call for saves for air game testing

[Joel Billings]

We're asking for saves that we can use in looking at the question of auto-intercepts of enemy air phase raids. We're also looking for some where Air Superiority ADs are being used to interdict enemy air phase raids. Version 1.02.50 and .51 dramatically increased the chance of auto-intercepts of raids in the air phase, especially those that are not flying deep over enemy lines (deep raids were already being intercepted enough as there was usually a chance to detect the raids and intercept them before they reached their target). We're willing to adjust the chances to intercept, but we don't have the real world saves to use in a major effort to adjust how things work (or even to try to tweak it now). If you've got saves just prior to the air phase, where you're not seeing the results you would expect, please send the saves to 2by3@2by3games.com. Please tell us what bombing target we should be looking at, and any information on the raid or defenses that you think would be useful for us to know. Saves are the best way for us to see how any changes are working out. If you have particular air missions that you think are working out well, you can send those as well, that way we can see the impact of our changes on those missions as well. BTW, we've just added code to limit the number of bombers and fighters to any one mission to 200 of each, so please don't send raids with over 200 bombers or 200 fighters in them. There have been a few comments re the air game changes in .50 and .51, both here and in the tester forum, but the number of posts have been relatively few so we need to get more feedback as well. But saves are the main focus at this time. Thanks.

[ShaggyHiK]

I don't play games against a bot, at the moment my participation is in a 4v4 game with the move coming to me ~once a week or two weeks.

Therefore, I can only give a new feedback if I find participation in a new party or an old one.
It will take some time.


Since I see your enthusiasm in this matter, then I must clarify for myself what time frame are you willing to endure?

[Joel Billings]

At this point, we're waiting for saves and feedback, so it's hard to say what the time frame will be. If you have something from your current 4 player game, perhaps you can get in touch with the right person with the pre-save before the air phase and have them send it to us. Thanks.

[Erik Rutins]

Just renewing the call here.

[ShaggyHiK]

Sent two save files to Joel in private messages in discord, 1 before the start of the air move. The second is right after the air phase.

The game works as I expect from it.

Bad weather does not allow the active use of aviation, flew 3 days out of 7. Losses are close to 10% of sorties.

The technical side of the issue, there is a lack of a button to send aircraft from the regiment to the pool.

There are regiments with 1-2-5 aircraft that cannot be replenished, but in reality the Soviet Air Force sent such regiments to the rear for staffing and training, and the aircraft were sent as replenishment to combat regiments.


In the game, they weigh dead weight. Reducing available aircraft.

Should such regiments be disbanded?

The same applies, for example, to the German reconnaissance air force, by the year 43, the decline in reconnaissance aircraft made it necessary to abandon the army reconnaissance aviation system and transfer more entire aircraft to the upper level of control. Still whole planes were sent as replenishment to the regiments that were preserved, and the beaten ones were withdrawn or disbanded.

[jasonbroomer]

I only play server games. In my current game versus PyleDriver I can confirm that the VVS can still do stuff against someone who doesn't really know the air war proficiently (I hope that I am not demeaning PileDrvier in saying this). Note that the turns are being done swiftly.

Air losses.png (504.68 KiB) Viewed 762 times

This is the losses update on turn 10 following the Soviet air phase.

Massed Soviet air attacks are still possible, despite limiting each mission to 200 bombers

Air Bombing.png (1.38 MiB) Viewed 762 times

The obvious route to get around the limitation in bombers is run multiple missions per directive (auto i.e. x2 here), run multiple missions for the Air command on the same target (x2 in this instance) and/or use different air commands (Long Range and Bryansk air commands here).

This threatening panzer division got hit by 35 air raids and took 1200 casualties and lost 19 AFVs (taken from the losses report as this was the only ground attack), c.10-20% losses.

The LfW intercepted these on a regular basis throughout the week (13 times) but with only 16 planes (patrol at the correct altitude at least). I am sure he isn't using AS, I didn't over this area (doh!).

Elsewhere, there is air activity over Odessa and Kuressaare where unescorted Axis NP were intercepted by Soviet AS creating gradual attritional losses on the Axis bombers.

[dgrimes]

Just started Stalingrad to Berlin. Playing as Germans against the AI in version 1.02.52. The air war looks good with one exception: Very, very rarely (something like 1 out of every 1,000 bomber sorties) do bombers inflict any damage on enemy fighters. This has long been an issue, but it may have gotten worse in the latest version. In fact its very rare for bombers even shoot back.

[dgrimes]

Just started Stalingrad to Berlin. Playing as Germans against the AI in version 1.02.52. The air war looks good with one exception: Very, very rarely (something like 1 out of every 1,000 bomber sorties) do bombers inflict any damage on enemy fighters. This has long been an issue, but it may have gotten worse in the latest version. In fact its very rare for bombers even shoot back.

[jasonbroomer]

I only play server games. In my current game versus PyleDriver I can confirm that the VVS can still do stuff against someone who doesn't really know the air war proficiently (I hope that I am not demeaning PileDrvier in saying this). Note that the turns are being done swiftly.

...

Elsewhere, there is air activity over Odessa and Kuressaare where unescorted Axis NP were intercepted by Soviet AS creating gradual attritional losses on the Axis bombers.

This incidentally is the '41 GC

[Erik Rutins]

I only play server games. In my current game versus PyleDriver I can confirm that the VVS can still do stuff against someone who doesn't really know the air war proficiently (I hope that I am not demeaning PileDrvier in saying this). Note that the turns are being done swiftly.

...

Elsewhere, there is air activity over Odessa and Kuressaare where unescorted Axis NP were intercepted by Soviet AS creating gradual attritional losses on the Axis bombers.

This incidentally is the '41 GC

I'll just add that if there's a particular server game anyone would like us to look at for air examples, just let us know and we can grab the latest save for the team's examination.

[DarkHorse2]

Still running into crazy level of intercepts of transport missions, well behind front lines.

See attached. Blue is route of transports, Red is the route of interceptors.

Additionally, I never see Ju52s firing a shot. If the 7.92mm MGs are not going to fire, I would rather just remove them to make more space for cargo.

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WiTE2_T6_TransportIntercept.jpg (502.72 KiB) Viewed 559 times

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FYI - I turned off FOW to see where those Laggs were coming from...

[DarkHorse2]

More fun with VVS interceptions of Air Transport missions.

The RAF would be very envious. hmmm.... Soviet commander does look somewhat British....

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WiTE2_T7_TransportIntercept.jpg (394.7 KiB) Viewed 512 times

[DarkHorse2]

Air system still screwy as hell.

GC41, T7

Germany has approx 120 Bf-109F-2s based at Minsk. They have fuel, ammo, supplies. Have traveled 0% this turn.

Germans make deliberate attack, VVS responds by sending 120+ AC for defensive ground support.

Luftwaffe intercepts with 3 Bf-109s.

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WiTE2_T7_DelibAttack.JPG (438.85 KiB) Viewed 501 times

[Jango32]

Add the saves then.

[DarkHorse2]

Read the instructions.

Saves are not added here.

[Jango32]

You're right, it was my mistake.

[Joel Billings]

If you can come up with some pre-saves I'll take a look.

[DarkHorse2]

VVS is not intercepting German Airbase Attack missions.

I have conducted in the neighborhood of 50-100 Airbase Attacks (post turn 1) and the VVS has not intercepted once

Which is probably good, because Soviet AA has been devastating, when encountered. (can easily loose 80+ bombers or 9-10% of attacking bombers / turn).

If I was to attack with Ju52s, I am sure that would be a guaranteed interception.

WiTE2_T7_NoInterceptByVVS.jpg (86.29 KiB) Viewed 401 times

WiTE2_T7_AirbaseAttack_Night_1.6.png (382.28 KiB) Viewed 401 times

WiTE2_T7_AirbaseAttack_3k_1.11.png (560.62 KiB) Viewed 401 times

WiTE2_T7_AirbaseAttack_16k_1.13.png (159.24 KiB) Viewed 401 times

[DarkHorse2]

More examples of VVS not intercepting....

WiTE2_T7_AirbaseAttack1.2.png (160.52 KiB) Viewed 400 times

WiTE2_T7_AirbaseAttack1.3.png (120.69 KiB) Viewed 400 times

WiTE2_T7_AirbaseAttack1.4.png (365.79 KiB) Viewed 400 times

WiTE2_T7_AirbaseAttack_CR_1.8.png (402.08 KiB) Viewed 395 times

[Joel Billings]

Do you have pre-saves? You should always save the game before the air phase. That way, if you see something off, you can send in the pre-save. As for air transport intercepts, how far behind the front line are your transports being intercepted?