180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

The Galaxy Lives On! Distant Worlds, the critically acclaimed 4X space strategy game is back with a brand new 64-bit engine, 3D graphics and a polished interface to begin an epic new Distant Worlds series with Distant Worlds 2. Distant Worlds 2 is a vast, pausable real-time 4X space strategy game. Experience the full depth and detail of turn-based strategy, but with the simplicity and ease of real-time, and on the scale of a massively-multiplayer online game.

Moderator: MOD_DW2

Cauldyth
Posts: 932
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:24 am

180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Cauldyth »

I've seen a couple youtubers mention that these 180-degree side-mounts (e.g. Ikkuro and Haakonish ships) are very poor, because they require the ship to fire broadside, meaning only half of the weapons can be brought to bear on a single target. This isn't true. They can both fire straight forward (plus a little bit, interestingly) meaning that both sides can fire on a single target, as long as the ship is pointed at it. They may still not be as good as other ship designs, but they're not too bad if you just make sure your ships have good turn rates!
User avatar
Nightskies
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:00 am
Location: Colorado

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Nightskies »

Such is the mentality of the hyper-aggressive, firepower-is-everything player. In their playstyle, they are not wrong.

Broadside weaponry is ideal for standoff direct-fire weaponry, namely [L] beams and heavy railguns. The race that most exemplifies broadside designs, the Haakonish (maybe the Ikkuro? I haven't looked at them yet), makes great use of the Dealbreaker beam. Even the AI sometimes makes a good design for this, effectively using the Neutral attack stance against a more powerful, blaster-focused player fleet.

Not that the AI stands a chance against a focused combat fleet, but credit where it is due.
Jorgen_CAB
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

Human cruisers and heavy railguns are quite good as well... I find that these side mounts actually give very good value in practical terms. When you look at how they work in a fleet then fire at two ships at the same time is not always bad either. Firing everything at one target usually means you also loose accuracy in the form of range, rather then firing on a closer target.

You also could potentially put direct firing weapons on one side and seeking weapons on another and go true broadside...


There are many factors that goes into how ships and fleets work.
zgrssd
Posts: 4991
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by zgrssd »

As they can fire straight ahead - and the ship AI is willing to "wiggle" to get a unfired weapon into arc - they are indeed perfectly good weapons.

I guess they do still feel weak.
I particularly do not like how Hakoonish Frigates don't just have a single forward facing mount for their Dealbreaker Beam. They have 2 180° mounts on the side.

That puts you at the mercy of the ship AI not messing up, and actually keeping the enemy in firing angle. And it also means the ships will inherently aim to fly a circle around the enemy, pointing the Dealbreaker at the enemy.
Jorgen_CAB
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:17 am As they can fire straight ahead - and the ship AI is willing to "wiggle" to get a unfired weapon into arc - they are indeed perfectly good weapons.

I guess they do still feel weak.
I particularly do not like how Hakoonish Frigates don't just have a single forward facing mount for their Dealbreaker Beam. They have 2 180° mounts on the side.

That puts you at the mercy of the ship AI not messing up, and actually keeping the enemy in firing angle. And it also means the ships will inherently aim to fly a circle around the enemy, pointing the Dealbreaker at the enemy.
This issue only exist when ships are fighting a single enemy ship, those scenarios rarely come up as being a problem in actual games.
zgrssd
Posts: 4991
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by zgrssd »

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:56 am
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:17 am As they can fire straight ahead - and the ship AI is willing to "wiggle" to get a unfired weapon into arc - they are indeed perfectly good weapons.

I guess they do still feel weak.
I particularly do not like how Hakoonish Frigates don't just have a single forward facing mount for their Dealbreaker Beam. They have 2 180° mounts on the side.

That puts you at the mercy of the ship AI not messing up, and actually keeping the enemy in firing angle. And it also means the ships will inherently aim to fly a circle around the enemy, pointing the Dealbreaker at the enemy.
This issue only exist when ships are fighting a single enemy ship, those scenarios rarely come up as being a problem in actual games.
How often it comes up does not mater to how it feels weak.
Jorgen_CAB
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:06 pm How often it comes up does not mater to how it feels weak.
But it is not weak... it actually is pretty strong as the ship can cover 360 degree around it with fire... when you are in a fleet formation this is very strong and you loose very little DPS in general.
zgrssd
Posts: 4991
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by zgrssd »

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:21 pm
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:06 pm How often it comes up does not mater to how it feels weak.
But it is not weak... it actually is pretty strong as the ship can cover 360 degree around it with fire... when you are in a fleet formation this is very strong and you loose very little DPS in general.
You seem to be missing the point:
It FEELS weak.
Jorgen_CAB
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:21 pm
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:06 pm How often it comes up does not mater to how it feels weak.
But it is not weak... it actually is pretty strong as the ship can cover 360 degree around it with fire... when you are in a fleet formation this is very strong and you loose very little DPS in general.
You seem to be missing the point:
It FEELS weak.
Sure... but whose fault is that... the person who don't understand how it work or the developers building interesting the ship models?!?

I would say that ships that have all the weapons facing in one direction is generally worse, not better. But it depends on overall fleet doctrine and how different ships work as a whole.

The only thing we can do it explain how to use the tools in the game. Not all things need to be perfectly balanced either.
Cauldyth
Posts: 932
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:24 am

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Cauldyth »

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:09 pm Not all things need to be perfectly balanced either.
This is a key point. The ship models are different not just for flavor and variety, but they're a key aspect of any particular race. Some races have better ship designs than others, or at least better for a certain types of use. It's a key part of their advantages/disadvantages as a race. They may have worse hulls, but they make up for it in research, trade, etc.

But anyway, I just wanted to point out a misconception some people have about these particular weapon mounts. They aren't as bad as they're made out to be.
AKicebear
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:11 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by AKicebear »

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:09 pm The only thing we can do it explain how to use the tools in the game. Not all things need to be perfectly balanced either.
This a thousand times. Let's not water down every interesting aspect of the race differences in the name of balance. This is an entirely single player game - one advantage of which is imbalance is perfectly fine. Some races can be unfair, harder than others to win with etc. And, just because a race has perceived weakness in a certain hull, doesn't mean it is weak overall.

Besides all that high level commentary, it seems the specific complaint is better solved with UI tips, rather than changing the mounts. Have advise for the player on what type of weapon configurations may work better with front, side, back mounted weapons in some unique hulls. More inquisitive players have already figured that out; a few tooltips may help the less experimental and also guide them in what behavior to look for as smart or foolish from that type of load out.
zgrssd
Posts: 4991
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by zgrssd »

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:09 pm
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:21 pm

But it is not weak... it actually is pretty strong as the ship can cover 360 degree around it with fire... when you are in a fleet formation this is very strong and you loose very little DPS in general.
You seem to be missing the point:
It FEELS weak.
Sure... but whose fault is that... the person who don't understand how it work or the developers building interesting the ship models?!?
It is the designers fault.

Making sure powerful things actually feel powerful is part of the job.
Not a big mistake, but something that could use a pass.
User avatar
Nightskies
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:00 am
Location: Colorado

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Nightskies »

"It is the designers fault. Making sure powerful things actually feel powerful is part of the job."

Consumer mentality. Wrong. Power fantasy, this is not.
Jorgen_CAB
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:27 pm
Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:09 pm
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:31 pm
You seem to be missing the point:
It FEELS weak.
Sure... but whose fault is that... the person who don't understand how it work or the developers building interesting the ship models?!?
It is the designers fault.

Making sure powerful things actually feel powerful is part of the job.
Not a big mistake, but something that could use a pass.
No... I don't agree at all... they should not need to put up a sign saying this is good. People have to work and earn the insight how to utilize the tools in a game. That is part of the experience of playing a game.

If some people "feel" it is weak without any fact, that is their issue.
zgrssd
Posts: 4991
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by zgrssd »

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:51 pm
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:27 pm
Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:09 pm

Sure... but whose fault is that... the person who don't understand how it work or the developers building interesting the ship models?!?
It is the designers fault.

Making sure powerful things actually feel powerful is part of the job.
Not a big mistake, but something that could use a pass.
No... I don't agree at all... they should not need to put up a sign saying this is good. People have to work and earn the insight how to utilize the tools in a game. That is part of the experience of playing a game.

If some people "feel" it is weak without any fact, that is their issue.
This is a game. Something I pay money to have fun with. Not a math test in school.

If it needs work to have fun with a basic mechanic, somewhere the designer definitely messed up.
AKicebear
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:11 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by AKicebear »

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:27 am This is a game. Something I pay money to have fun with. Not a math test in school.

If it needs work to have fun with a basic mechanic, somewhere the designer definitely messed up.
Some gamers derive joy from what you dislike, and vice versa. Things aren't as absolute as you make them out to be.

I do think the UI could help here - mostly via tips and warnings. If the automatic load out manages, most players probably won't notice. It is not a dire situation, and certainly not in the top complaints.
Jorgen_CAB
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:27 am
Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:51 pm
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:27 pm
It is the designers fault.

Making sure powerful things actually feel powerful is part of the job.
Not a big mistake, but something that could use a pass.
No... I don't agree at all... they should not need to put up a sign saying this is good. People have to work and earn the insight how to utilize the tools in a game. That is part of the experience of playing a game.

If some people "feel" it is weak without any fact, that is their issue.
This is a game. Something I pay money to have fun with. Not a math test in school.

If it needs work to have fun with a basic mechanic, somewhere the designer definitely messed up.
If you don't want a mental challenge you probably should play something a bit more simple... not that I think that you do.

But... games are by nature a puzzle to be solved, some more complicated than others. You have to at least work to some degree to figure out what works better and what does not, that is part of playing any game.

Figuring out how to best use and deploy the different ship design is such a puzzle to be solved by the players. The developers should not lead the players in how to best use ships in combat, you should learn that by experience.

It would be interesting to know what the developers should do in this specific case to make the game "fun" for you?
Ax
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:20 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Ax »

As another "puzzle piece", missiles don't even care about the firing arcs. They can do a 180 themselves and visually fly above/across the attacking ship.
zgrssd
Posts: 4991
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by zgrssd »

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:45 am
zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:27 am
Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:51 pm

No... I don't agree at all... they should not need to put up a sign saying this is good. People have to work and earn the insight how to utilize the tools in a game. That is part of the experience of playing a game.

If some people "feel" it is weak without any fact, that is their issue.
This is a game. Something I pay money to have fun with. Not a math test in school.

If it needs work to have fun with a basic mechanic, somewhere the designer definitely messed up.
If you don't want a mental challenge you probably should play something a bit more simple... not that I think that you do.

But... games are by nature a puzzle to be solved, some more complicated than others. You have to at least work to some degree to figure out what works better and what does not, that is part of playing any game.

Figuring out how to best use and deploy the different ship design is such a puzzle to be solved by the players. The developers should not lead the players in how to best use ships in combat, you should learn that by experience.

It would be interesting to know what the developers should do in this specific case to make the game "fun" for you?
If I need to puzzle out that the 180° Angle isn't the obvious drawback it should be (and would be in any other game), then something is wrong in the design. Plain and simple.
AKicebear wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:23 am It is not a dire situation, and certainly not in the top complaints.
Which would be a really good reply, if I have ever claimed anything remotely like that.
zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:27 pm Making sure powerful things actually feel powerful is part of the job.
Not a big mistake, but something that could use a pass.
Cauldyth
Posts: 932
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:24 am

Re: 180-degree "Broadside" Mounts Undervalued?

Post by Cauldyth »

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:27 pm If I need to puzzle out that the 180° Angle isn't the obvious drawback it should be (and would be in any other game), then something is wrong in the design. Plain and simple.
No, it shouldn't be. Something with a 180-degree firing angle, mounted 90-degrees to the axis of the ship, should be able to point perfectly forwards, and fire on any ship that the attacking ship is pointed at. That's pretty straightforward, and the game is working as designed and presented. My point in the original post was based on seeing more than one person claim that these weapons can only fire broadsides, not straight forwards.

But now I regret posting it, because I once again forgot that everything on the internet has to degenerate into bickering.
Post Reply

Return to “Distant Worlds 2”