Not sure if this is a bug, noticed that IFVs relucted to use ATGM to engage other IFVs

[Tcao]

Not sure if this is a bug, since I have very limit sample here
From 2 gameplay I noticed that IFVs relucted to use ATGM to engage other IFV targets.

Lesson of War, Marder didn't fire Milan on BMP-2.

Crossing the Waldnaab : My CSLA BVP-1 Co at half strength (with only 6 BVP available) assault a village in the open. It was defended by one PzG Marder plt. Marder IFVs should have a wide window of opportunity to fire ATGMs but from sound effect it only engages target with 20mm autocannon. My BVP-1 also didn't use the AT-3 ATGM, but with bigger gun and range close to 500m, the BVP-1 Co. knocked out all 3 Marder at the cost of 2 BVP-1

[CapnDarwin]

Not a bug. Those units will hold onto those ATGMs to deal with tanks as their guns are generally capable of getting kills on other thin-skinned IFVs/APCs.

[theWombat]

This is actually one of the things I really like about the game. It strikes me as a good approach to a complex problem, having the IFVs fire their autocannons at other lightly-armored vehicles while reserving their (far fewer) more powerful ATGMs for tanks. The autocannons are not likely to penetrate the tanks while the ATGMs are overkill for the other IFVs. Seems like a good way to do it.

[Tcao]

Well. I guess people are going to argue about that.
There is no doctrine forbidden IFV commander to use ATGM on other soft skin vehicles, especially when the engagement range is very long. I guess this is more of a decision at tactical level, a decision made by Company or even platoon commander.

Is it possible to add a new doctrine in SOP manager?

[sfbaytf]

I think at least adding the option to have ATGMs fire at IFVs makes sense. If a scenario gets created where tanks are minimal or non existent then it could become a problem.

Also Russian infantry is very deadly from what I’ve been seeing in my games. The ability to kill them more effectively with ATGMs at range while they are inside their carriers would be welcome.

[CapnDarwin]

I'll note the ATGM versus IFVs in Saturday's dev meeting and see Jeff's take on the subject. SOP setting for target type is not something we want to have for many reasons. Depending on the situation, training, etc., we may want to have the units have a chance to use a "restricted" munition at certain targets. It needs to be thought out.

[Tcao]

Thank you!
I noticed that IFV will fire ATGM on other IFVs, but only at the range of 0!

[Rake]

I've been away from the game for several months (I just looked back at a save game... the date was a week before Christmas). On seeing the newest update available, I've installed it and am ready to give the game another go.

My reason for leaving was, I presume, related to this issue. I was playing the first scenario in the US campaign. My plan was to use the Brads to spot and delay the Soviets while awaiting arrival of my helicopters. I was in pretty good shape at the time the Cobras showed up and was counting on them to hold off the lead soviet elements while the cav resupplied, rested fell back... whatever the individual units needed to take care of at the moment.

The Cobras did extremely well, right up to the point where they'd fired off all their rockets. Feeling the helos had things well in hand, I had looked away to watch the action around Westerhofen. When I looked back, EVERY ONE of the Cobras was either on the ground at FARP Alpha, or enroute to rearm. Checking ammo, each of the Cobras had a full load of TOW's, but was entirely out of rockets.

Not understanding (at the moment) why they weren't firing off TOWs at the Soviet recon units, I reloaded a save to see if I had given the Cobras a bad SOP. Realizing that they were set up to do what I wanted, I changed the SOP so that the Helos would not resupply until they were completely out of ammo. I restarted the turn to find that the Cobras, once they had expended all of their rockets, just flew back and forth across the airspace (keeping standoff distances) and watched as the Soviets overwhelmed my cavalry units.

At this point, I remembered that I had read something on the forum about units withholding ATGM's for "high-value targets". I don't know how many tanks the Sov's have in this scenario, but the Brads had already taken out several. I was just flabbergasted that the Cobras would not fire their missiles at the scout units that were swarming all over my scouts. At this point, I rage quit and had not opened the game again until today.

Now, I suppose that there must have been some thought that went into the design decision of having units not fire ATGM's at BRDM's, BRM's, BTR's, etc. While I had not read the manual from start to finish, I had read most of it. I do not recall any warnings about ATGM's not being used on lightly armored vehicles. I also have RED Storm (played it a LOT) and do no recall anything like this. I am an old f#@%, and maybe don't understand modern tactics as well as I do WW2 era stuff, but I just cannot imagine the crew of an attack helicopter out on a joy ride with a full rack of missiles ignoring the plight of the guys on the ground as they're being steamrolled.

I have not yet played with the new update. I hope that this has been addressed, or will be in the near future. If nothing less, I feel something like this should be added as an SOP. I really enjoyed FCRS and this game had been the number one game on my radar for many, many months. This one issue completely destroyed my desire to play the game... please fix it

[CapnDarwin]

Some elements of the shot selection have been tweaked, but a major revamp is in the works. We have some complex code for both target and weapon selection in the new game engine, and most of that is driven by the doctrinal use of the weapons. It's not perfect and may never be that way for everyone. Let's take the case of ATGMs. The main use is to kill tanks. So you send Attack helos out to hunt the enemy. The main function is to kill enemy armor. They first run into mech or recon units. What do you shoot with? If you use ATGMs and then move 5km down the road and hit a tank regiment, you have no killing power. In your case, they engaged with rockets against soft vehicles and could have gone cannon as well and been able to get kills and disrupt the recon elements. They went home after the rockets. Bit of a bug we are working on. Similar to the target-weapon issue, when do you go home to relead ammo to be effective? With ATGMs, they should have stayed on mission. We are working on that as well. We need to make it work better, and we are doing that now. Either way, there will always be those cases when things don't go the way you planned or hoped, but we will make it better and more realistic.

[Comcikda]

The ATGM issue has been discussed many times since the game was released. IRL I don't know if attack helicopters would request permission from command post to use ATGM to fire on soft targets like IFVs, and the way they are handled now only makes me think they are very stubborn.
I still maintain my opinion that FM can never cover every situation on the battlefield. If the ordinance could explain everything on the battlefield, then I think the Bible would be unnecessary because the person who wrote the ordinance is God.