How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Flashpoint Campaigns Southern Storm is a grand tactical wargame set at the height of the Cold War, with the action centered on the year 1989.

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juntoalmar
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How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by juntoalmar »

Hi,
I'm interested in purchasing this game, but and important factor to me is knowing how the WEGO is implemented. I have tried to find it in the forum and game description, but I haven't. I'm sorry if it has been explained already.

I know that players issue orders that are implemented at the same time. But, how do the players give their orders?

- In serial: Player 1 issues order and Player 2 waits. Once Player 1 is finished, he sends the gamefile (or updates in the server) and then Player 2 issues order and Player 1 waits. Once all the orders are defined, the turn executes. This is how War in the Pacific works, for example.
- In paralel: both Players give orders and when both are done, the turn executes.

There is a lot of waiting involved in the "serial" approach, and I'm interested to know how this game handles the orders in WEGO.

Thanks in advance!
(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/
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CapnDarwin
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by CapnDarwin »

Our game is an Asynchronous WEGO. Both sides enter orders and set parameters for their units. In the case of the AI, it sets up and orders units based on one of the Battle Plans in the scenario for that side. Most of the time, both sides will have a different order cycle timing. This is the game time in minutes before new orders can be made. The game will then run and resolve the action until it hits one of the side's orders cycle time, and then the game stops so that side can issue orders. Then, the game continues resolving until the next order cycle interruption. This could be for two or more cycles for a side if command times are vastly different. If playing a head-to-head PBEM++ game, once the game hits an orders cycle, that player does orders and watches it resolve up to the next command cycle, then sends the game turn to the other player to watch the resolution up to their command cycle.

Command cycles vary as the game is played based on electronic warfare, losses, and readiness drops (fatigue). They also vary with the size of forces and nation of forces.

The AI also issues or changes orders on its command cycle. It does not cheat or make "on-the-fly" adjustments beyond what the player's units can do during resolution based on the tactical AI and SOP conditions.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
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juntoalmar
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by juntoalmar »

Thanks for your answer. But can both players give orders at the same time, or does one player have to wait until the other one has issued his orders, in order to play?

Thanks
(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by CapnDarwin »

The only multiplayer is Play by Email (PBEM) or head to head on the same computer. There is no simultaneously entered orders nor live play over the internet. Hopefully that is more clear.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by juntoalmar »

Hi,

Thanks again for your quick answer.

From it, it seems the game works the same way as War in the Pacific. In WitP, when playing PBEM, first the Japanese gives the orders to their troops. The American player has to wait until the Japanese finishes and sends the file to the American to start giving his orders. Which in the ends means the players spend around 50% of the time waiting for the other (which is unfortunate in a WEGO game).

I’m trying to find a game in which players don’t have to wait for the other to do their stuff, and can work on their orders in parallel.

Thanks again!
(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by CapnDarwin »

One thing that might help here. Our game is a turn-based game in the simplest terms and not an RTS. WEGO means both sides do orders/direction and then there is a resolution of time. Most WEGO games have both players do orders at the same time. We are looking for a functioning OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop and the impact of command delay and degrading command over time. Hopefully, in the future, we can have the game work over the network/internet for a more live game along with the PBEM option. Even with that, players will have periods of downtime while the other does inputs. There is no real way to avoid that with our setup.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by SgtZdog »

To add in a little more here, our game is not really WEGO, as player action is just one player at a time using an initiative like system to determine who's turn it is. However combat execution is simultaneous.
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juntoalmar
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by juntoalmar »

It still looks like an amazing game, and I'm sure I'll end up purchasing on the next sale.

Mine is just a general moan on WEGO games, as I think it's a missing oportunity to add flexibility to game play.

Perhaps I should try to implement something like that myself... :)
(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by SgtZdog »

juntoalmar wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 12:08 pm It still looks like an amazing game, and I'm sure I'll end up purchasing on the next sale.

Mine is just a general moan on WEGO games, as I think it's a missing oportunity to add flexibility to game play.

Perhaps I should try to implement something like that myself... :)
I also really like WEGO for multiplayer games for the same reason (reduced waiting for players). Unfortunately, one of the ways we have the game be asymmetric is through a number of mechanics that mean the only time the players will actually have orders at the same time is during setup. So there isn't much incentive for us to restructure large portions of the code to make this tiny portion of the gameplay simultaneous.
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by CapnDarwin »

Any time of WEGO (fixed turn time or asynchronous) will have player downtime to review info and issue orders. The only way around that is an RTS-type game where you must deal with things on the fly. OK, for a game, it's not great for a simulation where you must deal with orders and planning. As we mentioned earlier, we would like to get to the point of having a live multiplayer game option to allow folks to play at a faster pace than PBEM. Even with that, each side will be down for a period of time while the other issues orders during the battle. Maybe we can figure out a way to streamline some of that, but as a WEGO, you can never escape it.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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On Target Simulations LLC
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by Sunbather »

CapnDarwin wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 10:29 pm Hopefully, in the future, we can have the game work over the network/internet for a more live game along with the PBEM option. Even with that, players will have periods of downtime while the other does inputs. There is no real way to avoid that with our setup.
I am still dreaming about a proper turn-based wargame that features such a live multiplayer. Rather than have to send dozens and dozens of emails around, players agree on a time for each turn (similar to a sand clock in chess), set the timer in-game so the turn ends automatically after X amount of minutes and then go play a scenario 'live'. I wouldn't mind the downtime at all, would use it to do household stuff or bureaucracy or brining order to my eternal paper chaos.

While games like the Panzer Campaigns might be way too big for live multiplayer, I think Flashpoint Campaigns would really lent itself to it. After all, most of the times you are only allowed to give a handful of orders anyways.

That's my 2 cents, I was just surprised you're actually thinking about implementing such a thing and I wanted to do my part to encourage you ; )
Last edited by Sunbather on Wed May 15, 2024 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by CapnDarwin »

Face-to-face mode is something our other customer is also interested in, and we have wanted to get back into that area as well, both with synchronous and asynchronous timings of the game—hopefully, next year.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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Re: How is WEGO implemented in this game?

Post by Sunbather »

CapnDarwin wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:56 pm Face-to-face mode is something our other customer is also interested in, and we have wanted to get back into that area as well, both with synchronous and asynchronous timings of the game—hopefully, next year.
That's great to hear!
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