Making recon units act like recon units.

Flashpoint Campaigns Southern Storm is a grand tactical wargame set at the height of the Cold War, with the action centered on the year 1989.

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blackcloud6
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Making recon units act like recon units.

Post by blackcloud6 »

One of the huge problems, in my view, of computer wargames that have Fog of War, is having recon units behave correctly. Recon units usually do "recon by death," they find the enemy by getting shot. How then, in Southern Strom, can one get recon units to recon without getting shot? What are the proper SOP setting and orders combo to get recon units to stop and recon before proceeding further on their path? One might say to only give them short paths and have their dismount set to a couple of hexes away but that would take most of scenario to do given the command times, especially for the Soviets.

if there is no way to do this with the existing system, should there be a "recon" move mode in addition to Hasty and Deliberate?
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WildCatNL
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Re: Making recon units act like recon units.

Post by WildCatNL »

Have you tried given them 5000m (10 hex) stand-off range? It should help them stay at a safe distance from known enemies, and help them to try to reestablish space between them and threats once they spot them at closer ranges.

(I haven't used this often with ground recce units, but it's my standard approach for scout helicopters).
William
On Target Simulations LLC
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blackcloud6
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Re: Making recon units act like recon units.

Post by blackcloud6 »

WildCatNL wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:06 pm Have you tried given them 5000m (10 hex) stand-off range? It should help them stay at a safe distance from known enemies, and help them to try to reestablish space between them and threats once they spot them at closer ranges.
No, I have not tried this. This may work to have them pull back once contact is made, but when trying to probe forward, as Soviet doctrine dictates, there needs to be recon units out ahead scouting for the enemy. Even on a deliberate move, they get picked off easily, usually not ever spotting what shot at them.
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cbelva
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Re: Making recon units act like recon units.

Post by cbelva »

I have used Recon with fairly good success. However, it only came after I quit trying to do recon by death (i.o.w. using Recon as a speedbump). On the defense, I will place them in front of my lines in good covered terrain with good line of sight and set their SOP so that they will remain hidden (0 standoff, fire only when fired on, etc). I have watched enemy units run right past them and they stay hidden. I'm then able to call arty down on them. At other times, I will try and work them back behind the enemy's lines to spot their arty and headquarters units. Again to call in arty or air strikes. As before, I will give them SOP settings that will help them move undetected and stay hidden if possible. I have done both of these fairly successfully. It takes planning and patience to develop a good recon plan.

It is not easy working your recon back behind the enemy's lines. You have to plan their movement paths to try and avoid the enemy. There was one scenario in particular I was playing and I had great success with my recon. It was not easy getting them forward. At one point I had to wait the enemy out. Once I got into the enemy's rear, the recon did a number on their artillery units.

Someone at the NTC said this about recon, "It is not recon's job to mark the enemy's forward position with their burning hulks." Unless you have an early 1980's Cav squadron, you are not going to be able to stand long going toe to toe with the enemy. Most recon/scout units are relatively weak and will not last long in a fire fight. You want to try and avoid them if at all possible.
Charles Belva
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Stelteck
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Re: Making recon units act like recon units.

Post by Stelteck »

Thanks.

I still use recon by death a lot because i'am not a very successful commander, but i notice that SOP rules "relocate when being fire at" can make them survive... sometimes.

I tried using a huge standoff range, but then the unit sometimes do weird thing. I saw them relocate while nothing was on the map. Maybe a short contact ? Sometimes there is a report in the intel screen. Sometimes not.

Personally, i would like advice about how to use unit with "ground search radar". Are they effective ? I'am not sûre how to manage them.
Brakes are for cowards !!
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blackcloud6
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Re: Making recon units act like recon units.

Post by blackcloud6 »

cbelva wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:10 am I have used Recon with fairly good success. However, it only came after I quit trying to do recon by death (i.o.w. using Recon as a speedbump). On the defense, I will place them in front of my lines in good covered terrain with good line of sight and set their SOP so that they will remain hidden (0 standoff, fire only when fired on, etc). I have watched enemy units run right past them and they stay hidden. I'm then able to call arty down on them. At other times, I will try and work them back behind the enemy's lines to spot their arty and headquarters units. Again to call in arty or air strikes. As before, I will give them SOP settings that will help them move undetected and stay hidden if possible. I have done both of these fairly successfully. It takes planning and patience to develop a good recon plan.

It is not easy working your recon back behind the enemy's lines. You have to plan their movement paths to try and avoid the enemy. There was one scenario in particular I was playing and I had great success with my recon. It was not easy getting them forward. At one point I had to wait the enemy out. Once I got into the enemy's rear, the recon did a number on their artillery units.

Someone at the NTC said this about recon, "It is not recon's job to mark the enemy's forward position with their burning hulks." Unless you have an early 1980's Cav squadron, you are not going to be able to stand long going toe to toe with the enemy. Most recon/scout units are relatively weak and will not last long in a fire fight. You want to try and avoid them if at all possible.
What are the SOP settings that you use?

And how do you use recon, and with what settings to lead a Warsaw Pact advance?

Making recon in the advance avoid the fight but fid the enemy is precisely what I want to do, but can't seem to find the right settings to do so.
IronMikeGolf
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Re: Making recon units act like recon units.

Post by IronMikeGolf »

Lots to unpack here and a paragraph or two won't make anyone a pro at using recon. Some ideas to consider:
1. cbelva gave good tips on using recon in the defense
2. Consider approaching this as using your recon to discover or rule out possible enemy COAs (Courses of Action) as opposed to "finding the enemy". Look at that as precise vs general.
3. Be sneaky moving recon elements. Make sure Movement SOP has Concealment checked. Pick observation vantage points. Use 6 waypoints for movement orders and stick to cover and concealment and break out of that to get to your vantage point(s).
4. Be patient and allow time for your recon to move into position.
5. There's two kinds of ground recon: Tank/IFV equipped and all the rest. All the rest is light recon and you want to avoid contact with those. Recon units with tanks or IFVs are combat recon. Those are your point people when advancing to contact. Look at terrain and be smart about driving into the middle of Engagement Areas. Skirt the edges.
6. You don't have to drive down the autobahn or the middle of a valley to do a route recon.
7. When you're attacking, your recon has two very useful tasks: flank security and looking for enemy maneuver (reinforcements or when and how the enemy reserve is committed). You want them to avoid any enemy covering force. It's not their job to "find the enemy line of resistance". You should be able to have a decent idea of that based on your mission, the terrain, and what you know about the enemy's forces.

If you can make it to Origins in June, I'm going to be doing some classes on Movement to Contact, Use of Recon, and Deliberate Attack against a Complex Defense in FCSS. Might do streams after that, but not before. My dance card is pretty full.
Jeff
Sua Sponte
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