The question to ask about The Italians

[RangerJoe]

So unless Britain marshaled the forces, deployed them closer, had the ships packed with equipment in port just waiting, but the troops ashore someplace doing some light training but not straying to far from the port, then the Canary Islands were unlikely to be occupied by the Allies unless they were invited in. If they were invited in, and even if they were not, the Canary Islands would then be occupied by the Allies at some point. Then any Free Spanish forces would actually have Spanish territory to retreat to and/or have expatriates join them there.

Other than U-boats, there would be little to no Axis naval intervention until Gibraltar was taken. Then it might be the Italian Navy in the open Atlantic, leaving the middle Med area of operations to go to the Atlantic. I am sure that would really help the North Afrikan Italian operations!

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
So unless Britain marshaled the forces, deployed them closer, had the ships packed with equipment in port just waiting, but the troops ashore someplace doing some light training but not straying to far from the port.....

Once everything was finally organized (taking about two weeks), the force and associated shipping were to be put on a 7 day standby to await events, meaning they could arrive off the Canaries about 14 days after the decision was made to launch the operation. And yes, that allowed some training/rehearsals to be conducted. The operation was to be launched at a time allowing a night arrival in low or no moonlight to ensure the commando units making the initial landing had the maximum chance of surprise against the estimated 20000 man garrison along with the coastal batteries.

It was also estimated at the time that this 7 day standby posture could be maintained for about a month before the shipping and troops would need to be released for other commitments.

[Zorch]

I would like to inject a graphical element into this discussion (below).

I don't know if this has been mentioned in any of the previous 1380 posts...forgive me for not reading them all. [:D]
The Germans don't need to take Gibraltar. They only need to deny its use (i.e., the harbor) to the British. The Luftwaffe was very capable of doing that, if it had airbases within reach of the Rock.

[Buckrock]

Force H was expected to head for open water once the Germans crossed the Spanish border. It wasn't just the threat of a sudden aerial attack, there was also the three major Spanish coastal batteries along with smaller nearby field batteries that could become a major threat if the Spanish decided they were going to get blamed anyway for allowing German indiscretions.

[RangerJoe]

I can see a plan forming for a quick grab by the "neutral" Italians . . .

[rico21]

Thanks Zorch![&o]
You give me an excellent what-if scenario suggest.

[Zorch]

Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war. It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil, but might cut him some slack with the US and Latin America. Franco could say to them (sotto voce), "Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

Franco did send the Blue division to Russia without a declaration of war, but they were 'volunteers' retaliating for the Soviet 'volunteers' who fought in Spain. And the Germans would have to send aviation support and and airfield protection forces to Spain, plus ongoing supplies.

Also, El Caudillo could say to Winston, "Please don't cut off my food and oil or seize the Canary Islands. I only want Gibraltar. You can keep the rest of your colonies. I won't say a word about West Indies piracy, plundering my treasure fleets, and those bastards Drake and Anson. You really don't want me to send another Armada, do you?"

Um, what did you say was in those brownies I ate?

[RangerJoe]

They must have been good brownies.

Stalin wanted the western Allies to invade Spain and take out Franco after Germany was defeated. The Spanish maquis even invaded Spain from France during the war but the other Allies did not support them. Franco was in a tough position but allowing the Luftwaffe in? Normandy need not have been done at all. The Spanish citizens might not have like the Allied troops there but they would have liked the food.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

warspite1

Who does that help though? It doesn't get Spain Gibraltar (but does bring them a world of grief), it doesn't put Gibraltar permanently out of action (but does commit German aircraft to Spain) and it allows the Royal Navy to move back as soon as German aircraft are sent elsewhere. Take Gibraltar or don't. The German air force in World War II suffered from having too much to do with not enough aircraft. If the Germans aren't going to invade Gibraltar then they will need an air force in Spain permanently or the British will move back in - a la Malta.

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war.

warspite1

I can't really see how that wouldn't be the equivalent to declaring war.

ORIGINAL: Zorch

It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil

warspite1

Correct

ORIGINAL: Zorch

"Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Also, El Caudillo could say to Winston, "Please don't cut off my food and oil or seize the Canary Islands. I only want Gibraltar. You can keep the rest of your colonies".

warspite1

Well yes, I'm sure he could say that......

ORIGINAL: Zorch

"You really don't want me to send another Armada, do you?"

warspite1

Sure send another one. The first one was fun.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.

Why not mention US pre-war in this list?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.

Why not mention US pre-war in this list?

Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.

Why not mention US pre-war in this list?

Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?

warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Orm


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?

Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?

warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).

I knew that but I as just being helpful to Orm.

But Spain also helped the Allies as well not to mention people fleeing Nazi Europe.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Orm


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?

Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?

warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).

Yes, I understood that it was only an example. It just felt like all the examples were of actions that benefited Axis, and I just wanted to suggest that there were actions in the other direction as well. Should have written it better.

Edit: Is felt the right form? Or right word? [&:] [:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?

warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).

Yes, I understood that it was only an example. It just felt like all the examples were of actions that benefited Axis, and I just wanted to suggest that there were actions in the other direction as well. Should have written it better.

Edit: Is felt the right form? Or right word? [&:] [:D]

warspite1

Because the subject was a country whose actions would have benefitted the Axis, it seemed logical to use examples of other countries whose actions benefitted the Axis. If you want to use other examples then no problem.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).

Yes, I understood that it was only an example. It just felt like all the examples were of actions that benefited Axis, and I just wanted to suggest that there were actions in the other direction as well. Should have written it better.

Edit: Is felt the right form? Or right word? [&:] [:D]

warspite1

Because the subject was a country whose actions would have benefitted the Axis, it seemed logical to use examples of other countries whose actions benefitted the Axis. If you want to use other examples then no problem.

Yes, felt is the proper word in the proper context there as I understand English. Of course, in English, I would not want to be a swede . . . [;)]

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war. It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil, but might cut him some slack with the US and Latin America. Franco could say to them (sotto voce), "Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

There was an similar scenario that British planners were considering by late 1940, where Spain protests but in lieu of a survivable alternative is forced to allow German entry, which leads to Gibraltar and Portugal (and possibly Tangiers) being taken before the Germans then withdraw from Spanish territory, relying on sea and air supply (not the band) from Italy and Occupied France to sustain the German forces left to defend these newly won areas while Britain and the US are left to assess any Spanish claims of still qualifying as a non-belligerent, especially now that there is no longer a German presence in her sovereign territories.

It might sound like the British planners were over-thinking things but that was their wartime role and they recognized the fact that Spain was somewhat trapped between a Rock and a hard place. They could also leave it to bodies like the War Cabinet and the Ministry of Economic Warfare to make the final judgement as to Spanish accountability over the matter.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war. It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil, but might cut him some slack with the US and Latin America. Franco could say to them (sotto voce), "Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

There was an similar scenario that British planners were considering by late 1940, where Spain protests but in lieu of a survivable alternative is forced to allow German entry, which leads to Gibraltar and Portugal (and possibly Tangiers) being taken before the Germans then withdraw from Spanish territory, relying on sea and air supply (not the band) from Italy and Occupied France to sustain the German forces left to defend these newly won areas while Britain and the US are left to assess any Spanish claims of still qualifying as a non-belligerent, especially now that there is no longer a German presence in her sovereign territories.

It might sound like the British planners were over-thinking things but that was their wartime role and they recognized the fact that Spain was somewhat trapped between a Rock and a hard place. They could also leave it to bodies like the War Cabinet and the Ministry of Economic Warfare to make the final judgement as to Spanish accountability over the matter.

There was also Operation Tracer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tracer

[warspite1]

Almost finished Mussolini Unleashed. This has been such a good read and really brings home the true nature of the German/Italian relationship in the early years of the war (and of course the total basket case that was Commando Supremo). If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.

I'm sure the author of Mussolini Unleashed will be so grateful for a comparison like that.[:D]