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Patch 1.795 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and there experience...

 
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Patch 1.795 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and the... - 11/23/2005 6:36:05 AM   
Tanaka


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Sakai, Honda Ota, etc... all gone and there experience too....

these guys were all in the high 90's...

Every scenario the pilots have changed! All the historical pilots that were in there historical groups are gone!

Where did all the good pilots go???




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< Message edited by Tanaka -- 12/18/2005 3:58:02 AM >


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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 7:33:13 AM   
PoorBoy2001

 

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And have you tried adding a pilot to an existing japanese squadron? The new pilots come in with one mission and high experience (in the 90's even), although the pilot pool in my game has been dry for months.


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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 7:43:47 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PoorBoy2001

And have you tried adding a pilot to an existing japanese squadron? The new pilots come in with one mission and high experience (in the 90's even), although the pilot pool in my game has been dry for months.




But why take out the existing veterans and start the group with new guys and have the old guys come in later? They were already there!?! Why not leave them in as they were and let the new ones come in later? This changes the game completely for me and takes out the fun historical flavor of following real true life individual pilots and where they were in history. They put a lot of work and research into putting these guys in the right places and now its all screwed up. Id rather play with the older patch...


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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 8:14:24 AM   
michaelm75au


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Hi
If you have the save before they disappeared, send it to me (michaelm75@hotmail.com) and I'll have a look.

Michael

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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 8:34:05 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Hi
If you have the save before they disappeared, send it to me (michaelm75@hotmail.com) and I'll have a look.

Michael


there is no save. all the scenarios start out this way. all the pilots have changed at the start. compare 1.60 groups to 1.795 and you will see what i mean....

just check out the 1st Tainan group pilots with the two patch versions and you will see what i mean...

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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 11:36:43 AM   
michaelm75au


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I can see what has happened.
The pilots have not been lost. They actually have been distributed to other air groups. If you check some of the naval air groups, I found those pilots there.

I have based the following analysis on the game files for scenario #15.

The 12 pilots in the database for group F1/Tainan (#220) have a delay date of 411207, which translates to a delay of 1 day. Just like ships, a delay equal to the scenario start date means that the unit arrives at the end of the turn. So these pilots are not available till end of the turn.

With the changes made, when a group needs pilots, they are taken from any existing pilots waiting to come into play before new pilots are generated. This delays drawing down on the pilot replacement pool while there are still pilots in the "wings". It also has the benefit of also sometimes pulling pilots from groups with too many pilots.

So as groups are requesting pilots, existing pilots with some delay value are being pulled into that group.

Now in theory, I thought it was only going to pull waiting pilots from other groups if there were no spare pilots available. [fix the full pilot bugs]
But it appears to be getting the "delayed" pilots regardless of group, first.

While "not quite right", is this a totally unreasonable thing?

Michael

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 6
RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 5:29:24 PM   
scout1


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quote:

It also has the benefit of also sometimes pulling pilots from groups with too many pilots.


Michael, just what logic is applied as to WHICH "extra" pilots it pulls from an existing/overstuffed group ? One potential pitfall I'd see here is if it grabs the creme of the crop and distributes them around. Could send some top notch fighter pilots and transfer them into a backwater area or worst, a non-combat group ....

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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 6:51:58 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I can see what has happened.
The pilots have not been lost. They actually have been distributed to other air groups. If you check some of the naval air groups, I found those pilots there.

I have based the following analysis on the game files for scenario #15.

The 12 pilots in the database for group F1/Tainan (#220) have a delay date of 411207, which translates to a delay of 1 day. Just like ships, a delay equal to the scenario start date means that the unit arrives at the end of the turn. So these pilots are not available till end of the turn.

With the changes made, when a group needs pilots, they are taken from any existing pilots waiting to come into play before new pilots are generated. This delays drawing down on the pilot replacement pool while there are still pilots in the "wings". It also has the benefit of also sometimes pulling pilots from groups with too many pilots.

So as groups are requesting pilots, existing pilots with some delay value are being pulled into that group.

Now in theory, I thought it was only going to pull waiting pilots from other groups if there were no spare pilots available. [fix the full pilot bugs]
But it appears to be getting the "delayed" pilots regardless of group, first.

While "not quite right", is this a totally unreasonable thing?

Michael


I understand you guys are trying to fix this pilot problem and I appreciate the effort. But there has to be a much better way than destroying the history! This is why we play the game! I hate to be complaining because I know you guys have been working hard and all the other fixes are great. But I would much rather stick with the previous historical groups that the game was built around.

This change does many negative things:

Turn 1 for Japan: (Which is probably the single most important turn for Japan) All airgroups are significantly weakened) Now instead of being in the high 90's they start out in the 80's and low 90's. Best Experienced pilots are Gone!

Historical accuracy is thrown out the window! This was the best part of the game!

Pilots are spread out everywhere and anywhere. It makes no sense!

Certain groups had special elite historical status. Now gone!

I will definitely be downgrading to the old patch...


< Message edited by Tanaka -- 11/23/2005 7:21:32 PM >


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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 9:47:13 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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We'll take a look at this again, but the problems this solved were well worth solving. If we can do it without affecting the "delay 1" pilots that are in there for historical reasons, that would without question be preferable.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Tanaka)
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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/23/2005 9:50:20 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We'll take a look at this again, but the problems this solved were well worth solving. If we can do it without affecting the "delay 1" pilots that are in there for historical reasons, that would without question be preferable.

Regards,

- Erik


Thanks for taking a look at this Erik!

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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 11/24/2005 3:31:04 AM   
michaelm75au


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At one stage of the builds, the "extra" pilots would only get drawn into their "historical" group. The way Tanaka would wish it.

But this left us with still a big hole in the available pilots when the pilot number reached 30K - some groups had ~150 pilots in the group's "extra" pool and some groups had no pilots at all.

So the idea was expanded to grab any "extra" pilots to fill up these groups. I don't know if MikeW applies any other checks than that the "extra" pilot is of the same nationality as the requesting group.

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

It also has the benefit of also sometimes pulling pilots from groups with too many pilots.


Michael, just what logic is applied as to WHICH "extra" pilots it pulls from an existing/overstuffed group ? One potential pitfall I'd see here is if it grabs the creme of the crop and distributes them around. Could send some top notch fighter pilots and transfer them into a backwater area or worst, a non-combat group ....


(in reply to scout1)
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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/3/2005 10:34:53 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

At one stage of the builds, the "extra" pilots would only get drawn into their "historical" group. The way Tanaka would wish it.

But this left us with still a big hole in the available pilots when the pilot number reached 30K - some groups had ~150 pilots in the group's "extra" pool and some groups had no pilots at all.

So the idea was expanded to grab any "extra" pilots to fill up these groups. I don't know if MikeW applies any other checks than that the "extra" pilot is of the same nationality as the requesting group.

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

It also has the benefit of also sometimes pulling pilots from groups with too many pilots.


Michael, just what logic is applied as to WHICH "extra" pilots it pulls from an existing/overstuffed group ? One potential pitfall I'd see here is if it grabs the creme of the crop and distributes them around. Could send some top notch fighter pilots and transfer them into a backwater area or worst, a non-combat group ....




Im a little confused here. The pilots that Im talking about all started out in there groups already on turn one. They were not "extra pilots" and they were not drawn in the next turns as they were already there. For some reason they have been taken out of their groups from turn 1 and put into the pool....

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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/4/2005 1:18:21 AM   
michaelm75au


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It is not a case of the program has assigned these pilots to one group and then pull them into another. The way these pilots have been setup in the scenario file implies that they are not available until the end of Dec 7 turn, not at the start. The delay should have been 0, to bring it into line with how delay is handled in other files.

In scenario #16, these pilots are in their correct groups because the delay date for the pilots is 411207 and scenario starts on 411208. There is no "delay".

In scenario #15, these same pilots have a delay of 411207, which in game terms translates to a delay of 1 day. Generally, anything with a delay of the scenario start date means it will arrrive at the end of the turn. If you look at the editor manual, it actually says this even for pilots.

The "1" delay does not normally hurt the pilot allocation process because that is how the program knows pilots are in the "wings".

Yes. This is different to previous versions. [Pilots only went into their historical group prior to 1.7beta.]

Yes. This is not what should be happening. [
quote:

Erik Rutins: We'll take a look at this again, but the problems this solved were well worth solving. If we can do it without affecting the "delay 1" pilots that are in there for historical reasons, that would without question be preferable.
]

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

At one stage of the builds, the "extra" pilots would only get drawn into their "historical" group. The way Tanaka would wish it.

But this left us with still a big hole in the available pilots when the pilot number reached 30K - some groups had ~150 pilots in the group's "extra" pool and some groups had no pilots at all.

So the idea was expanded to grab any "extra" pilots to fill up these groups. I don't know if MikeW applies any other checks than that the "extra" pilot is of the same nationality as the requesting group.

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

It also has the benefit of also sometimes pulling pilots from groups with too many pilots.


Michael, just what logic is applied as to WHICH "extra" pilots it pulls from an existing/overstuffed group ? One potential pitfall I'd see here is if it grabs the creme of the crop and distributes them around. Could send some top notch fighter pilots and transfer them into a backwater area or worst, a non-combat group ....




Im a little confused here. The pilots that Im talking about all started out in there groups already on turn one. They were not "extra pilots" and they were not drawn in the next turns as they were already there. For some reason they have been taken out of their groups from turn 1 and put into the pool....



< Message edited by michaelm -- 12/4/2005 7:45:27 AM >

(in reply to Tanaka)
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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/4/2005 11:43:43 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

It is not a case of the program has assigned these pilots to one group and then pull them into another. The way these pilots have been setup in the scenario file implies that they are not available until the end of Dec 7 turn, not at the start. The delay should have been 0, to bring it into line with how delay is handled in other files.

In scenario #16, these pilots are in their correct groups because the delay date for the pilots is 411207 and scenario starts on 411208. There is no "delay".

In scenario #15, these same pilots have a delay of 411207, which in game terms translates to a delay of 1 day. Generally, anything with a delay of the scenario start date means it will arrrive at the end of the turn. If you look at the editor manual, it actually says this even for pilots.

The "1" delay does not normally hurt the pilot allocation process because that is how the program knows pilots are in the "wings".

Yes. This is different to previous versions. [Pilots only went into their historical group prior to 1.7beta.]

Yes. This is not what should be happening. [
quote:

Erik Rutins: We'll take a look at this again, but the problems this solved were well worth solving. If we can do it without affecting the "delay 1" pilots that are in there for historical reasons, that would without question be preferable.
]

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

At one stage of the builds, the "extra" pilots would only get drawn into their "historical" group. The way Tanaka would wish it.

But this left us with still a big hole in the available pilots when the pilot number reached 30K - some groups had ~150 pilots in the group's "extra" pool and some groups had no pilots at all.

So the idea was expanded to grab any "extra" pilots to fill up these groups. I don't know if MikeW applies any other checks than that the "extra" pilot is of the same nationality as the requesting group.

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

It also has the benefit of also sometimes pulling pilots from groups with too many pilots.


Michael, just what logic is applied as to WHICH "extra" pilots it pulls from an existing/overstuffed group ? One potential pitfall I'd see here is if it grabs the creme of the crop and distributes them around. Could send some top notch fighter pilots and transfer them into a backwater area or worst, a non-combat group ....




Im a little confused here. The pilots that Im talking about all started out in there groups already on turn one. They were not "extra pilots" and they were not drawn in the next turns as they were already there. For some reason they have been taken out of their groups from turn 1 and put into the pool....




Scenario 16: Pilots are not correct either: As a matter of fact they are even worse...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 12/4/2005 11:44:23 PM >


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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/4/2005 11:49:26 PM   
Tanaka


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The pilots I am talking about ARE AVAILABLE AT THE START. I will reinstall WITP up until the before last patch and post a screenie...

This is the same group available patch 1.60 AT GAME START DEC 7 before the turn is played. And there is a BIG DIFFERENCE in historical pilots and experience.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 12/5/2005 12:44:54 AM >


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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/5/2005 12:59:05 AM   
Tanaka


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Am I assuming correctly is what the patch did was take these pilots out of the start of the turn and had them coming in at the end of the turn? But this is not working like its supposed to??? Is this what you guys are trying to say?

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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/5/2005 8:27:14 AM   
michaelm75au


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Basically yes.
I had concentrated on testing the real mid-game issue of no pilots available.
Takes about 30 minutes to run turn and compare the before/after pilot changes in order to verify correct pilot movement.
Ran the first turn but did not spend the extra time doing the before/after comparison.
Sorry. Goofed up.

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Am I assuming correctly is what the patch did was take these pilots out of the start of the turn and had them coming in at the end of the turn? But this is not working like its supposed to??? Is this what you guys are trying to say?


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Post #: 17
RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/11/2005 11:27:21 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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I can understand wanting to have the historically known pilots in the right squadrons at the start, but I noticed that your complaint was about losing experienced pilots.

"Turn 1 for Japan: (Which is probably the single most important turn for Japan) All airgroups are significantly weakened) Now instead of being in the high 90's they start out in the 80's and low 90's. Best Experienced pilots are Gone!"

However, in looking at the squadron information on the first post and in looking at the last one you posted, I notice that the average experience level in the first one is 85, while the average experience level in the last one (the one from v1.60) is only 78. Is it truly that big a problem?

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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/15/2005 12:52:06 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I can understand wanting to have the historically known pilots in the right squadrons at the start, but I noticed that your complaint was about losing experienced pilots.

"Turn 1 for Japan: (Which is probably the single most important turn for Japan) All airgroups are significantly weakened) Now instead of being in the high 90's they start out in the 80's and low 90's. Best Experienced pilots are Gone!"

However, in looking at the squadron information on the first post and in looking at the last one you posted, I notice that the average experience level in the first one is 85, while the average experience level in the last one (the one from v1.60) is only 78. Is it truly that big a problem?


Take a look at all the groups not just that one...


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RE: Patch 1.794 took out Japanese Historical Pilots and... - 12/15/2005 5:19:47 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

I can understand wanting to have the historically known pilots in the right squadrons at the start, but I noticed that your complaint was about losing experienced pilots.

"Turn 1 for Japan: (Which is probably the single most important turn for Japan) All airgroups are significantly weakened) Now instead of being in the high 90's they start out in the 80's and low 90's. Best Experienced pilots are Gone!"

However, in looking at the squadron information on the first post and in looking at the last one you posted, I notice that the average experience level in the first one is 85, while the average experience level in the last one (the one from v1.60) is only 78. Is it truly that big a problem?


Tanaka has found that while trying to fix one problem a new one has been introduced. And that is that the pre-existing pilots have been "spread out" across air groups instead of being concentrated. As per what Tanaka has laid out - the game prior to the patch had the highly experienced Japanese pilots in their correct air units for the start of the game. So the pilots have been correct from the time the game was released up to the point that the new beta patch has been made available to us for testing. The new beta patch is moving these pilots around and "de-concentrating" them. Tanaka is asking for a return to the status quo as regards where these pilots start the game.

Is it truly that big a problem ?

Unfortunately, I'd say yes. The Japanese hardware per se in the first six months is not really better than the Allied hardware. The Japanese thus rely on every tiny advantage they can get to be able to take the SRA on a roughly historical time line. Against an experienced Allied player, this is not an easy task. Making it harder - is just that - making it harder. And it is pretty clear that it was not the intention to "mess up the start" by moving the pilots around - it was a "by product" of fixing another problem.

So we ( I'll join Tanaka on this one ) are hoping that we can have both ... that is the benefits of the fix ... but also status-quo ante-this-patch for the Japanese pilots !!!



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Patch 1.794 took out Allied Historical Pilots too - 12/15/2005 6:14:08 PM   
Don Bowen


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The problem affected allied pilots too. I put in the exact pilots for Marine pilots of the VMF-211 detachment on Wake. With the latest patch (whatever number, lost track) the available pilots are spread out across all air groups that the executable thinks are available (arrival date < 411207??). Unfortunately the carrier air groups have no arrival date and several of my Wake pilots ended up in Marine Air Groups assigned to escort carriers arriving in 1945.

This is particularly unfortunate as I only have about 5100 pilots defined and the game is generating the remainder. I end up with several actual Wake pilots moved and generated pilots in their place.

This is a CHS example but the same is happening to Navy and British CAG groups as well so it will appear in all scenarios.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 21
RE: Patch 1.794 took out Allied Historical Pilots too - 12/18/2005 1:38:23 AM   
Wallymanowar


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For a little while I thought that I had a workaround for this problem.

I rolled back the patch to 1.77 which still had the historical pilots starting in their proper squadrons (both Japanese and Allied), and started Scenario 15 - saving the first turn before without making any changes. Then I went back and applied the 1.795 patch and restarted using my save - all the historical pilots were still in their proper squadrons

Now I went and ended the planning turn in order to allow combat. Everything went according to plan, the Japanese attacked and when the combat was resolved I checked the squadrons - no problem the historical pilots were still with their units

Did some further checking with other leaders - Admiral Yamamoto was replaced with some crummy staff officer Went back to my Dec 7th save and sure enough Yamamoto was in charge of the Combined Fleet.

Something changed during the combat phase to replace leaders in the units. BTW the reason I checked for Yamamoto was that I had a Campaign in progress which I had upgraded to 1.795 and during my play of that game Yamamoto and a few other Japanese officers went AWOL - my historical Japanese pilots were still in their respective squadrons during that game after the patch. You can conduct the same test yourselves in order to doublecheck my results - it might help you troubleshoot this problem.

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Post #: 22
RE: Patch 1.794 took out Allied Historical Pilots too - 1/7/2006 6:17:10 AM   
Tanaka


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Mike any chance for a fix in 1.8??? Please Please...

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Post #: 23
RE: Patch 1.795 took out Allied Historical Pilots too - 1/7/2006 8:01:56 AM   
michaelm75au


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When a game started under pre-1.795 is played with v1.795, during the turn resolution the leaders numbered between 3990 and 8260 (approx) have all their details (name/rank/skills/etc) cleared out, but not what unit they are in charge off. [Not the same problem as the other leader bug that was replacing leaders. That was fixed in 1.7]

Now most of these "cleared" leaders are Japanese in the official scenarios, which is what you could see with Yamamoto.

It does not seem to happen on a game started afresh with 1.795.

It could be releated to the pilot issue as they both seemed to have gone bung in this particular beta.[In the previous beta I tested, I think it was okay except for drawing the pilots out of their historical squadrons.]

I have documented the problem and posted in DevForum.

Hopefully, when MikeW gets a break from war in the east and wants to rest in the pacific, he will look at it.

Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Tremblay


Did some further checking with other leaders - Admiral Yamamoto was replaced with some crummy staff officer Went back to my Dec 7th save and sure enough Yamamoto was in charge of the Combined Fleet.

Something changed during the combat phase to replace leaders in the units. BTW the reason I checked for Yamamoto was that I had a Campaign in progress which I had upgraded to 1.795 and during my play of that game Yamamoto and a few other Japanese officers went AWOL - my historical Japanese pilots were still in their respective squadrons during that game after the patch. You can conduct the same test yourselves in order to doublecheck my results - it might help you troubleshoot this problem.



< Message edited by michaelm -- 1/8/2006 3:37:41 AM >

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