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Anti-Air units - 10/12/2005 4:09:54 PM   
Kereguelen


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The following is in response to a question from Andrew Brown in the thread about flak efficiency. I posted it here to make it available to all who're interested in this kind of stuff. I'm rather trying to achieve an adequate representation of flak in future mod (because this seems to be a problem) than to simply present OOB/TOE stuff. Ostensibly the "vanilla" game tried to represent AA with the various base forces, but the base forces seem to lack many assets that were available to the Allies and Japan during the Pacific War.

I started with British anti-air units here, because I have the most material about them. Something about Japanese, US, and Australian AA units should follow.

British AA Organization

There were two categories of British AA regiments: Heavy (HAA) and Light (LAA). The term "regiment" actually stood for battalion sized formations in the Royal Artillery.

HAA had three heavy batteries of 8 guns each. Generally they were equipped with 3.7in AA guns (in the ETO some received 4.5in and even 5.5in AA guns, but it seems that the regiments in SE Asia never received such heavy/immobile equipment). Thus a HAA regiment contained 24x 3.7in AA guns.

There were two variants of LAA in the RA, both having 3 light batteries. The first variant had 3 batteries of 40mm Bofors, the other variant 3 batteries of 20mm Oerlikon. There were (as far as I can tell) never regiments that contained a mixture of Bofors and Oerlikon guns. A Bofors battery had 18x 40mm Bofors, a Oerlikon battery 16x 20mm Oerlikon (in some cases in the ETO 20mm Polsten, Vickers, or Hispano-Suiza guns). Thus a Bofors-equipped LAA had 54x 40mm Bofors while a Oerlikon-equipped LAA had (only) 48x 20mm Oerlikon. But I've yet to see a British AA unit present in SE Asia that was equipped with 20mm guns (there're some data available about units in Malaya and Burma), currently it seems that all were Bofors-equipped.

Individual AA units


The following does not list independent AA batteries. There's not much available about them, just that some where located at Colombo and Trincomalee (at least one at each location).

3rd British HAA as well as 1st HAA, 2nd HAA and 3rd LAA Regiments HKSRA (Hong Kong Singapore Royal Artillery) and 1st Indian HAA were stationed at Singapore on Dec 7th 1941. 2nd Indian LAA was part of the garrison of Penang. 5th British HAA and 1st AA Rgt HKSRA (not to be confused with 1st HAA HKSRA) were at Hong Kong.

6th HAA and 35th LAA (btw, together with 85th AT Rgt) reached Singapore with Convoy DM 1 (ex Convoy WS 12 ZM from the UK) on Jan 13th 1942 (DM 1 had departed Durban/SA Dec 24th 1941). Both AA Rgt were evacuated to Java later, but they left most of their AA guns behind.

77th HAA, 21st LAA and 48th LAA arrived at Batavia on Feb 4th 1942 with Convoy DM 2 (ex Convoy WS 14 B from UK, left Durban Jan 13th 1942). Original Destination had been Singapore, but convoy was diverted to Batavia. 77th HAA was equipped with 3.7in AA guns, 21st and 48th LAA with 40mm Bofors. 77th HAA was full-strength (3 batteries with 24 3.7in altogether) and it seems that 21st and 48th LAA were at least full-strength (3 batteries with 54 40mm Bofors each) when they arrived at Batavia but later gave some of their guns to 35th LAA when it arrived without guns from Singapore.

All AA regiments that went to Java were captured there and not reformed!

67th HAA arrived in India in February 1942 from North Africa. According to Wavell, it arrived without any guns because these were left behind in North Africa (there're some quite funny remarks from him about this, ostensibly the Middle East Command simply diverted the guns for its own use before the regiment departed to India!).

The following list comes from "British Artillery Regiments of Second World War" by Malcolm A. Bellis. Bellis does not list the exact arrival times in India/Ceylon but the date of assignment to AA Brigades or commands. Some of the listed AA regiments may have arrived some weeks earlier in India. All of the following units came from British Home Defense Command and were most likely at full strength when they arrived (and all had participated in the Battle of Britain in 1940).

56th HAA, 95th HAA, 24th LAA, 28th LAA arrived in India, and 43rd LAA at Colombo in March 1942.
59th, 60th and 118th LAA arrived in India in April 1942.
53rd HAA, 70th HAA, 69th LAA, 77th LAA arrived in India, and 52nd HAA and 69th LAA at Colombo in May 1942.
66th HAA arrived in India, and 55th LAA at Colombo in June 1942.
8th HAA and 44th LAA arrived in India and 23rd LAA at Colombo in July 1942
36th and 78th LAA arrived in India in August 1942

118th LAA arrived in India in April 1943
101st HAA arrived in India in July 1943
122nd LAA arrived in India in June 1943

No AA regiments did arrive later. Some LAA were combined with AT Rgt to form LAA/AT regiments in 1943 for use with infantry divisions, but their overall strength did not change. 95th LAA came under suspended animation in March 1944 due to manpower shortages.


Sources are mainly Malcolm A. Bellis (see above) and reports from Wavell and Brooke-Popham published in the London Gazeteer.

< Message edited by Kereguelen -- 10/12/2005 4:10:59 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Anti-Air units - 10/25/2005 1:47:20 PM   
Kereguelen


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Japanese AA Organization (IJA)

I've not found much about the organization of AA units of the IJA. The following material comes mostly from a study of the US-Army (not available online).

Independent AA Artillery Gun Battery: 4x 75mm AA Gun, 2x 13.2mm AAMG (fully motorized)

Independent Automatic Weapons Gun Battery: 6x 20mm AA Gun (fully motorized)

These batteries are listed as independent units in my source, but it seems that AA units organized as regiments used the same TOE for their batteries. The AA regiments of Japanese Tank Divisions contained 2 AA Gun batteries and 4 AW batteries each, with 8x 75mm AA gun, 4x 13.2mm AAMG, and 24x 20mm AA gun (I've a TOE that lists them to the last man and vehicle). But I'm not sure if this TOE did apply to other AA regiments as well.

Japanese divisions had no "organic" AA units as part of their TOE, but sometimes independent AA units were attached to them. Some Independent Mixed Brigades later received their own AA "units" (these "units" were battalion-sized formations, it seems that the Japanese here used the German term "Abteilung" for artillery and AA battalions that were not part of any regimental organization), but Independent Mixed Brigades often received what was available when and where they were formed (sometimes receiving mortar or AA units instead of field/mountain artillery). However, most "reinforced" Japanese divisions received a remarkable number of 20mm AA guns (Type 98; up to 76 per division) - these guns were used both in the AA and the AT role (and the number of MMG in those divisions was less, seems that they were issued instead of MMG).

The IJA did form some new AA regiments for home defense in Japan sometime in 1943/44 (I've no formation data for them, but they existed in 1944/45). These regiments seem to have received 105mm AA guns from units stationed overseas then and their unit designations indicate that they were duplicats of existing (heavy) AA regiments.

The "reserve" AA regiments existing in WITP were most likely not real AA regiments but just depot/training formations (btw, as the reserve tank regiments we have in WITP).


(in reply to Kereguelen)
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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/25/2005 10:24:01 PM   
m10bob


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I have a book called :World War II Order of Battle, by Shelby L Stanton which lists the disposition of all American AA brigades, units (or groups), and bn's..It does not however provide the TOE of said units, (except to indicate they had 155's, 75's, etc..)
It does give a brief history of mustering and deployment, and where the units were located on VJ day.
The list is exhaustive, and if anybody wants the info for CHS,etc, please tell me. Of course I will gladly research........
(I presume the book is still available as well?)..

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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/25/2005 10:46:13 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I presume the book is still available as well


This excellent book is out of print and copies are very expensive (approaching $100). Keep and treasure yours.


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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/25/2005 10:52:52 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I presume the book is still available as well


This excellent book is out of print and copies are very expensive (approaching $100). Keep and treasure yours.




Tragic Don !!!!!!!!!! I got mine on a Waldon's bargain table before Christmas, approx 1989 ???...Maybe $20 ???


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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/27/2005 6:41:32 AM   
akdreemer


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From: Anchorage, Alaska
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I presume the book is still available as well


This excellent book is out of print and copies are very expensive (approaching $100). Keep and treasure yours.




Ahh the wonders of Inter Library Loans... But yeah, great book. I am thinking on investing in a copy. As far as the TOE goes for US AAA units I have the information if anyone is interested. In the same vein I have included a list of all the coastal artillery regiments (155, AAA) not specifically assigned to Forts or Harbor Defence. The cut off date appears to be mid-43 when the Anti-Aircraft became independent of the Coastal Artillery and the regimental system was done away with in favor of indepedent battalions.

At that time there appeared to be 4 basic forms of AA units: A gun BN, composed of 90mm's (except for some stateside ones that hade 120's), a Auto Weapons BN semi-mobile (37mm or 40mm and Quad/single.50 cal mg's), Auto Weapons SP (M16 sp Quad .50's, M15 SP 37mm/twin 50's - and later in 1944 the M19 which a twin SP 40mm mounted on a Chaffee lt tank chassis). The 4th BN was equipped with searchlights.








Attachment (1)

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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/27/2005 7:15:39 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
As far as the TOE goes for US AAA units I have the information if anyone is interested. In the same vein I have included a list of all the coastal artillery regiments (155, AAA) not specifically assigned to Forts or Harbor Defence. The cut off date appears to be mid-43 when the Anti-Aircraft became independent of the Coastal Artillery and the regimental system was done away with in favor of indepedent battalions.

At that time there appeared to be 4 basic forms of AA units: A gun BN, composed of 90mm's (except for some stateside ones that hade 120's), a Auto Weapons BN semi-mobile (37mm or 40mm and Quad/single.50 cal mg's), Auto Weapons SP (M16 sp Quad .50's, M15 SP 37mm/twin 50's - and later in 1944 the M19 which a twin SP 40mm mounted on a Chaffee lt tank chassis). The 4th BN was equipped with searchlights.


By all means post the data. I am going to have to ask for some volunteers to help review and enter the data, though. My "in box" is still very full...

There is one problem, though - there is a shortage of free LCU slots. I am trying not to add any more at the moment, although I HAVE added some late war Allied divisions earmarked for the invasion of Japan, as per the data supplied by Blackhorse. I have actually culled a couple of LCUs here and there by combining some CD units.

Because of the shortage of LCU slots I don't think we can add the missing British AA units, for example. As a result I am looking at adding the missing guns (and there looks to be a lot missing) to CD and Base Force units. I will be posting my suggested British AA adjustments in the next day or so, hopefully, along with a list of other changes added to CHS so far.

Andrew

Edit: Oh, I just noticed that you DID post the data. Now - how to include it without adding more LCUs?


_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


(in reply to akdreemer)
Post #: 7
RE: Anti-Air units - 10/27/2005 8:47:01 AM   
akdreemer


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From: Anchorage, Alaska
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
As far as the TOE goes for US AAA units I have the information if anyone is interested. In the same vein I have included a list of all the coastal artillery regiments (155, AAA) not specifically assigned to Forts or Harbor Defence. The cut off date appears to be mid-43 when the Anti-Aircraft became independent of the Coastal Artillery and the regimental system was done away with in favor of indepedent battalions.

At that time there appeared to be 4 basic forms of AA units: A gun BN, composed of 90mm's (except for some stateside ones that hade 120's), a Auto Weapons BN semi-mobile (37mm or 40mm and Quad/single.50 cal mg's), Auto Weapons SP (M16 sp Quad .50's, M15 SP 37mm/twin 50's - and later in 1944 the M19 which a twin SP 40mm mounted on a Chaffee lt tank chassis). The 4th BN was equipped with searchlights.


By all means post the data. I am going to have to ask for some volunteers to help review and enter the data, though. My "in box" is still very full...

There is one problem, though - there is a shortage of free LCU slots. I am trying not to add any more at the moment, although I HAVE added some late war Allied divisions earmarked for the invasion of Japan, as per the data supplied by Blackhorse. I have actually culled a couple of LCUs here and there by combining some CD units.

Because of the shortage of LCU slots I don't think we can add the missing British AA units, for example. As a result I am looking at adding the missing guns (and there looks to be a lot missing) to CD and Base Force units. I will be posting my suggested British AA adjustments in the next day or so, hopefully, along with a list of other changes added to CHS so far.

Andrew

Edit: Oh, I just noticed that you DID post the data. Now - how to include it without adding more LCUs?



I would not be in to much of a hurry on this. What I cam going to do is post the second half soon, which will contain the AAA and CA BN's that entered the Pacific after May 1943. Mostly I am posting this for information purposes. What I am going to do when I get all the units figured out I will be looking for how to not include a lot of them. Basically a goodly portion of these units, can be accounted for as attached to the various base units that enter the game. However, my research has indicated that the game TOE's need to be modified for the Coast Artillery AA units to reflect reality. First, there were NO 20mm Orlikons authorized for use by US Army AA units. Second, we need a device for the Quad .50 M2's (M51) as well as an M2 that does not upgrades and one that upgrades into a Quad .50. As I have posted previously there are device slots available if we move the large CD guns to the non-production section (I have tested this andnit seems to work). Change 90mm availablility till 2/42 to reflect the generally poor readiness of the west coast AA units and the east coast/Europe bias. The priority for the 40mm was also Europe, so it took some time before the Pacific AA units began equipping with them, thus the Jan 1943 available seems appropriate.

Thus the regiment would look like this (Historically had 12/3", 64 .50Cal water cooled):
16x3" AA ---> 90mm Already programmed (make the units only 12 gun until mid 1942)
32x.50 AA ----> 37mm AA(12/42) -----> 40mm AA(1/43)
32x.50 AA ----> M51 (Quad M2 .50 cal)

For those of you who might be interested I have posted an excellent PhD Dissertation on the devlopement of the US AAA doctrine through 1945. An excellent read :
http://www.akdreemer.com/richards_war_in_the_pacific_page.htm





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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/27/2005 9:28:43 AM   
m10bob


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I suspect a lot of those "support" units are already figured into the game ala "Base Force",etc..???

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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/27/2005 2:44:39 PM   
Sardaukar


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To me it seems that Base Forces etc. have too low numbers of AA weaponry in current scenarios.

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RE: Anti-Air units - 10/27/2005 9:52:38 PM   
akdreemer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

To me it seems that Base Forces etc. have too low numbers of AA weaponry in current scenarios.


I agree in part because pre-war US Army doctrine called for at least 1 BN, and preferrably 2, of heavy guns (12)to protect a point target. The AA Gun BN was increased to at 4 batteries of 4 guns, or 16 total, by mid-June 42. I think that the Army/Airforce base forces whould have at least a composite AA BN consisting of at least 8 hvy guns and 16 40mm and 16 .50cal AA (roughly 1/2 BN each of gun and light AA). It is about time we start thinking in terms of discrete TOE instead of some abitrary numbers when we design the makeup of LCU's.

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