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COmments on these combat results anyone?

 
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COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 12:02:27 PM   
Gilligan

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
Hey guys,

Just had my hat handed to me, and I think at this point I can only surrender, but I wanted to get some opinions on the combat results. The first wave is my chief concern, where I had 108 F6F and some Wildcats lead a strike and get completely wiped out without one attack on a ship..the entrie 2 day turn saw me land zero attacks on any IJN ship, despite my having 8 CV and 15 CVL/CVE in support of a landing in Shikka. take a peek below...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 109
N1K1-J George x 52
J2M Jack x 45
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 8

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 16
F6F Hellcat x 108
SB2C Helldiver x 86
TBM Avenger x 72

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 7 destroyed, 5 damaged
J2M Jack: 5 destroyed, 6 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 18 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 16 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 108 destroyed
SB2C Helldiver: 62 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 68 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 102
N1K1-J George x 52
J2M Jack x 40
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 6

Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 29
TBM Avenger x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 24 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 14 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 102
N1K1-J George x 52
J2M Jack x 40
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 6

Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M Jack: 2 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 34 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 78
N1K1-J George x 39
J2M Jack x 27
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 2

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 8
TBM Avenger x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 8 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 9 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 77
N1K1-J George x 39
J2M Jack x 27
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 2

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 31
F6F Hellcat x 12
SB2C Helldiver x 31
TBM Avenger x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
J2M Jack: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 10 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 31 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 12 destroyed
SB2C Helldiver: 23 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 34 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 43
N1K1-J George x 25
J2M Jack x 17
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 2

Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 7 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 60
N1K1-J George x 25
J2M Jack x 18
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 2

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 14
TBM Avenger x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 14 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 7 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 99
N1K1-J George x 51
J2M Jack x 36
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 5

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 87
TBM Avenger x 37

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 3 destroyed
J2M Jack: 1 destroyed
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 10 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 86 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 37 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 49
N1K1-J George x 25
J2M Jack x 17
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 13
TBM Avenger x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 damaged
N1K1-J George: 1 damaged
J2M Jack: 1 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 13 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 21 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 78
N1K1-J George x 38
J2M Jack x 24
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 22
TBM Avenger x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 2 destroyed
J2M Jack: 1 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 22 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 7 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 94
N1K1-J George x 51
J2M Jack x 36
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 4

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 16
SB2C Helldiver x 31
TBM Avenger x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 16 destroyed
SB2C Helldiver: 14 destroyed, 1 damaged
TBM Avenger: 18 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 90
N1K1-J George x 49
J2M Jack x 32
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 6
TBM Avenger x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 8 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 70
N1K1-J George x 36
J2M Jack x 24
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 28
TBM Avenger x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed
J2M Jack: 1 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 28 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 15 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 41
N1K1-J George x 24
J2M Jack x 17

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 30
TBM Avenger x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
J2M Jack: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 30 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 8 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 38
N1K1-J George x 24
J2M Jack x 16

Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 7 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DE Samuel B. Roberts

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
DE John C. Butler, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DE Thomason

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 484
D4Y Judy x 76
B7A Grace x 106

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 53
F6F Hellcat x 189

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 295 destroyed
D4Y Judy: 7 destroyed, 19 damaged
B7A Grace: 8 destroyed, 45 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 53 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 189 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Marblehead
CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Ticonderoga, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bennington, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
DD Crane
DD Kalk, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Cassin Young, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
2 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 1 destroyed, 11 damaged

Allied Ships
AP Windsor, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
LCI LCI-625
LCI LCI-627, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
APD Lloyd, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-398, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
127 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,34

Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 23

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y Judy: 12 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 2
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 4, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
AK Durham Victory, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,32

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 9

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 63

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 3 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 9
B7A Grace x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A Grace: 10 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Randolph

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 60
P1Y Frances x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 22 damaged
P1Y Frances: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied Ships
DE LeRay Wilson
DE Swearer
AK Poyang
AK Murada
DD Cooper
AK Rhesus, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Octans, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Calamaries, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Lycaon, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Merkur
DE Hemminger, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Acubens, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DE Howard F. Clark, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Algorab, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Auriga
DE Snyder
AK Almaack, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,32

Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 19

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 63

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y Judy: 19 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,34

Japanese aircraft
B6N Jill x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N Jill: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Barnes, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Suwannee, Torpedo hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B6N Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B6N Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B6N Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B6N Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,34

Japanese aircraft
B7A Grace x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A Grace: 4 destroyed, 17 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Saginaw Bay, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Fanshaw Bay
CVE St. Lo
CVE Kadashan Bay, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet


Day two results (now that my entire air wing is gone..I actually got off lucky I think)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 76,38

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 20
P1Y Frances x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 3 destroyed, 14 damaged
P1Y Frances: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1
DD Isherwood

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 3

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 2 damaged


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,37

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 4
P1Y Frances x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 4 damaged
P1Y Frances: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Intrepid

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 75,37

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 17
P1Y Frances x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Kalk, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34


Allied aircraft
PBY Catalina x 1


Allied aircraft losses
PBY Catalina: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34


Allied aircraft
Mosquito PR.IX x 1


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 74,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 47
N1K1-J George x 4
J2M Jack x 24
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 14
TBM Avenger x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 7 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 5 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 76,38

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Shikka at 74,31

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 243
D4Y Judy x 33
B6N Jill x 7
B7A Grace x 43

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged
D4Y Judy: 2 destroyed, 18 damaged
B6N Jill: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B7A Grace: 4 destroyed, 22 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 21 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Cape Esperance, Bomb hits 1
CVE Matanikau, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CVE Savo Island, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CVE Steamer Bay, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Wake Island, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B6N Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B6N Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 76,38

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE St. Lo

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet




Anyhow, feel free to let me know this was completely fine and I just got my hat handed to me. I have lost, or will lose, the Cvs Intrepid, Hancock, Lexington, Enterprise, Wasp, Bennington, Ticondaroga, and Randolph. Ouch...

_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 12:08:43 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12961
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
Oh man! Never seen something like that. What´s the date mid 44? Normally it should be the opposite! I only can recommend you this: Other way your opponent will occupy the West Coast after sinking the rest of your fleet!

(in reply to Gilligan)
Post #: 2
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 12:24:25 PM   
tabpub


Posts: 1019
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area
Status: offline
Is this a scenario, or a long term campaign that is ending?
If long term, I guess it could be remotely possible that he had some real tailkicking pilots left in 45. In a scenario, I don't think that they would be that good. Or, were they all land based? Were all your CV/CVE in one big group or split up in 2-3 per TF? Looks like a mega TF or two from this point of view.

I am more surprised that you not only didn't hit anything, it looks like you didn't even make it through to ATTACK anything.....split up attacks or not. Usually, something leaks through during an attack, even if out numbered badly.....

But, without more background, it is only supposition to say anything. You might have run your airgroups ragged earlier and they went in in really bad shape or something like that.
Do you know what you were trying to bomb? It would really stink if you were going after a giant barge TF or something.....

_____________________________

Sing to the tune of "Man on the Flying Trapeze"
..Oh! We fly o'er the treetops with inches to spare,
There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
The tracers look fine as a strafin' we go.
But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...

(in reply to Gilligan)
Post #: 3
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 1:15:21 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
The Game is not designed to replicate the historical reality of WW II. You have to learn the subtle combination of factors that will allow you to be successful. At the same time you need to take a similar approach as was taken in WW II:

- Fight you enemy where you have an overwhelming advantage
- Eliminate your enemy's supplies prior to attacking
- Wear down your enemy in advance of attacking
- Isolate and go around your enemy's strongpoints

If you are playing against the AI, go back and replay that turn a number of times - each time changing some factors:

- The number of ships in the TFs
- The leaders
- The distance to the enemy
- The amount of experience and rest of your pilots
- The altitudes of your planes
- Your targets
- etc

Watch the differences closely.

If you are not playing the AI:

- set up a similar game against the AI and try similar things so that you can see the effects

- Surrender, ask you opponent for another game, and try things differently

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Gilligan)
Post #: 4
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 1:32:05 PM   
Marten


Posts: 336
Joined: 12/14/2004
From: Gdansk, Poland
Status: offline
quote:


Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 484
D4Y Judy x 76
B7A Grace x 106

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 53
F6F Hellcat x 189

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 295 destroyed
D4Y Judy: 7 destroyed, 19 damaged
B7A Grace: 8 destroyed, 45 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 53 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 189 destroyed


well, your aircrafts performed quite good during this engagement. strange...

_____________________________


(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 5
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 1:35:50 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 14578
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
Hmmm looks like your opponent had some 100 xp pilots in there you should have got some strike through with those numbers of aircraft

Andy

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 6
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 1:38:16 PM   
Rainerle

 

Posts: 463
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Burghausen/Bavaria
Status: offline
Well, you were invading Shikka, on japanese island of Sakhalin without LBA cover and faced approx. 1000 enemy a/c. what did you expect ?

_____________________________


Image brought to you by courtesy of Subchaser!

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 7
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 2:09:30 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
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quote:

well, your aircrafts performed quite good during this engagement. strange


He was outnumbered, so while his aircraft did well, they weren't "gods" and couldn't overcome the overwhelming odds.

Hey, I can shoot down Zeros with Brewsters when I get 2 or 3 to 1 odds too...

(in reply to Marten)
Post #: 8
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 2:19:52 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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quote:

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 18 destroyed


Notice this ? The 8 Frank were probably in CAP but my guess is that this TF was in a base and many more Franks scrambled to meet the raid (Japanese radar is working... I can't believe it) and so your airmen faced scores of Franks and Georges, probably with excellent pilots... and they proved more than enough to defeat your Hellcats.

Since how many time did your airmen fly ? I think they should have some level of fatigue to be defeated like that... Also only CVs are shown as being attacked at the same time as your CV...

Some suggestions:
_ don't remain too much time near enemy bases
_ use Corsairs aboard CVs. It is gamey in 1943 but was done in 1944. They are better than F6F.
_ put BB and cruisers in your CV TF, the additionnal AA will decimate Japanese aircraft and also divert some attacking AC. May do the difference between a sunk CV and a damaged CV.

(in reply to Rainerle)
Post #: 9
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 2:45:45 PM   
saj42


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what was the experience level of your pilots?

with those results it looks like yours were 60s and the Japs were 90+s

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Post #: 10
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 3:05:48 PM   
pauk


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yeah, very interesting. If you surrender, please discuss with your opponent and bring here details (pilots exp level; fatigue; morale... etc, for both sides)



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Post #: 11
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 3:15:15 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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Why surrender ? Nuke them... this defeat probably extends the war by 6 months but war is not lost.

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Post #: 12
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 3:24:25 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Context

The combat replay shows what happened to you, but it does not show how you got there.

A map showing your forces, not just little green TF markers but something that shows whats in the TFs and the CAP is helpful.

Also experience levels of your pilots, any intel you had about the Japanese, the date (very important) is this Vs. the AI or a human, what altitude your CAP was set at, anything else you can provide. Did you know how many planes the Japanese had in the area? Did you recon the area? Did you telegraph that you were coming? When did the Japanese see your ships coming, today? two days ago? 4 days ago?

Just for starters it looks like you attacked at 1 to 2 odds (or worse) in aircraft which is something that no historical commander was willing to do, and now you have some idea why.


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Post #: 13
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 3:33:05 PM   
Tom Hunter


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I just opened up my game to find out where Shikka is.

Its on Sakhalin Island (due North of Japan) and its completely surrounded by Japanese bases.

There must have been days of warning, maybe well over a week. The entire Japanese airforce could base within range of the place or within a days flight.

LBA cover for the Allies is impossible at Shikka even if the Kuriles are Allied.

The more I learn the more I think this combat result was fine. I would not surrender if I were you, I would go back to the drawing board and launch a campaign coming up from the South using LBA to cover the advance. Your opponent beat you up pretty good but the game is not over by a long shot. Put it down to a learning experience and try something else.

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Post #: 14
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 3:45:17 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Very interesting! Until Gilligan chimes in with more information to satisfy our collective curiosity, I'll play forensics (CSI: North Pacific) and try to conclude how this happened.

- You went directly to North Japan (Shikka is I believe on Sakhalin island). You wanted to skip attritional fights in Solomons, New Guinea, Marshalls, Marianas... and went directly Midway => Wake => Marcus => North Japan, perhaps even Alaska => North Japan. What you got is a good lesson in why you can't skip the attritional fights if you want to win as Allies.

- Most battles were fought at extreme range for fighters, probably on both sides, but certainly so for USN. As evidenced by huge losses for attacker's fighters in every case (again, being more painful for USN in this case)

This attack below:

Day Air attack on TF at 75,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 484
D4Y Judy x 76
B7A Grace x 106

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 53
F6F Hellcat x 189

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 295 destroyed
D4Y Judy: 7 destroyed, 19 damaged
B7A Grace: 8 destroyed, 45 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 53 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 189 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Marblehead
CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Ticonderoga, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bennington, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
DD Crane
DD Kalk, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Cassin Young, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

...was by far the most important melee of the whole two day battle, the one that decided the outcome. You lost 2,5 CVs with all their planes and that was it. Without theit bombers and CAP fighters battle was lost right then and there. You shot *enormous* number of his aircraft, but with his strike being so massive, many still managed to break through. Where this strike was launched from - landbase or CVs? I haven't had the opportunity to try B7A in my games, but obviously it's very sturdy aircraft (many were damaged but managed to attack anyway I guess, and obtain hits), here's what happens when IJN is able to deploy them in some numbers...

Oleg


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Post #: 15
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 7:19:11 PM   
mlees


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Another point may be the CV TF capacity ceiling. I forget exactly what is is for each year, but if you exceed that amount (in number of hulls), strikes (and CAP?) become less coordinated.

If you massed all your CV's in one or two TF's, you may have given yourself an additional negative modifier to your combats.

Fighting at extreme range causes undue pilot fatigue and losses.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 16
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 7:31:18 PM   
WiTP_Dude


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quote:

Day Air attack on TF at 73,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 109
N1K1-J George x 52
J2M Jack x 45
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 8

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 16
F6F Hellcat x 108
SB2C Helldiver x 86
TBM Avenger x 72

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 7 destroyed, 5 damaged
J2M Jack: 5 destroyed, 6 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 18 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 16 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 108 destroyed
SB2C Helldiver: 62 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 68 destroyed


Georges, Jacks, and Franks are good planes if they have decent pilots. Even Zekes can do ok with experienced pilots. I think that is probably what happened here. Also the Allies seem to be suffering from massive CV over concentration penalties.


quote:

Day Air attack on TF at 75,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 484
D4Y Judy x 76
B7A Grace x 106

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 53
F6F Hellcat x 189

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 295 destroyed
D4Y Judy: 7 destroyed, 19 damaged
B7A Grace: 8 destroyed, 45 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 53 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 189 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Marblehead
CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Ticonderoga, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bennington, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
DD Crane
DD Kalk, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Cassin Young, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
1 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
2 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B7A Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet


Good tactics by the Japanese side. 300 Zekes are fed to the Allied CAP so the bombers can get through.

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Post #: 17
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 7:36:28 PM   
Bradley7735


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

Also the Allies seem to be suffering from massive CV over concentration penalties.


CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Ticonderoga, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bennington, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage


If so, then why only 2.5 CV's in this task force?

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Post #: 18
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 7:52:13 PM   
WiTP_Dude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

Also the Allies seem to be suffering from massive CV over concentration penalties.


CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Ticonderoga, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bennington, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage


If so, then why only 2.5 CV's in this task force?


You can't always tell from the attack how many ships are in a task force. Not all ships show up each time.



Edit: Never mind, these results show attacks on multiple days.

< Message edited by WiTP_Dude -- 9/8/2005 7:55:49 PM >


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I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club

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Post #: 19
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 8:32:05 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

Also the Allies seem to be suffering from massive CV over concentration penalties.


CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Ticonderoga, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bennington, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage


If so, then why only 2.5 CV's in this task force?


73,35

Agree with Bradley, in this case the problem is not concentration. From the above post you find that in hex 75,34, there were several CV TF:
1) CVL Belleau Wood, CV Ticonderoga, CV Bennington
2) CV Enterprise, CV Wasp
3) CV Lexington, CV Randolph
4) CVE Barnes, CVE Suwannee
5) CVE Saginaw Bay, CVE Fanshaw Bay, CVE St. Lo, CVE Kadashan Bay

With 63 Wildcats flying CAP over 75, 32

The target hex for USN strikes was at 73, 35, only 3 hexes away.

As I see that, both sides had many TFs in two hexes 3 hexes away. The Allied AC went by small groups while the IJN first wave was massive. I don't know if luck or bad vs good leaders was the most important. But I think the Japanese deploiement was better.

15 US waves went against Japanese CAP with a total of 235 FM-2 Wildcat, 136 F6F Hellcat, 177 SB2C Helldiver, 288 TBM Avenger... the bad luck was that the F6F arrived first and met the CAP before it get fatigued. Then against FM-2 and bombers the tired IJN pilots still ruled the day.

The return raid by IJN was done by 493 A6M5, 99 Judy, 128 Grace, 15 Jill but 484 of the escort flew with the first wave and destroyed or repulsed or the CAP.
43 P1Y Frances, 19 Judies and 69 Betties flew against other targets.

The main Allied problems were:
_ too much FM-2 Wildcat and too few Hellcats and Corsairs.
_ bigger problem is that the number of bombers was more important than the number of escort. The ratio for Allied is 465 bombers for 371 escort while for IJN it is 232 bombers for 493 escorts. It is always better to have more fighters in raids, so you fly less raids with better escort.
_ another big error is, as I said, to have apparently no AA escort in CV groups. BB and CLAA, if available, should always escort CV. Also the date is probably late 44 or 1945 and putting 4 CV by TF will give higher AA ratings.

The settings of Japanese airgroups was better and they also probably were less tired and had higher morale as they arrived on the scene of the battle just the day of the battle. I guess that the raids against the US CV were launched by IJN CVs and that all IJN CV aircraft flew the raid, while the CVs were LRCAPed from nearby Japanese bases, using at his best the great number of Japanese bases available. Land-based fighters have maluses to LRCAP TFs but I you put 600 on LRCAP you will have 150-200 over the ships.
I bet the Japanese admiral here was willing to sacrifice his ships to hit hard the US Death Star. It works better than he planend probably. By the way I did the same in UV last year and the result was a draw with both CV airgroups decimated (80-90% losses) but no ship sunk. Around 100 Japanese bombers reached a CV TF escorted by 4 BBs and 2 CLAA and 50-75 fell to AA. But I bet the Grace is a better plane (durability and speed) than the Kate.







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Post #: 20
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 9:04:00 PM   
dwbradley

 

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I am Gilligan's opponent in this battle. I hope he does not mind me posting this reply I just sent to him.

There are three issues/questions that seem to be on the table.

First, were you outplayed? No way. Out-lucked, maybe. If anything you are the one who has outplayed me. When I saw the fleet approaching the string of barrier islands I was at first puzzled. I thought, "Those islands are pretty useless as bases and a long way from anywhere". But the forces detected were far greater than might be required to set up a harassing point to my north. It was with a sick, sinking feeling that I realized that the bases on Sakkalin Island were capable of being built up to level 7. They were within easy B-29 range of all of the Home Islands and might put all of Japan under escorted heavy-bomber attack by late '44. Truly a disaster in the making for me the Japanese player. I was forced to admit to myself that I had not reviewed this portion of the map for such a possibility. There's a line in one of Jerry Pournelle's novels about "surprise is an event that happens in the mind of the enemy commander". You certainly caused that event in my mind. Now, normally, bold moves carry with them some attendant risks. Think Inchon. MacArthur was brilliant but maybe also a bit lucky. Sakkalin is a long way from home and you were almost forced to go in blind for fear of giving the operation away. So, hat's off to you for having the imagination necessary to see this possibility and for having the large appendages necessary to attempt it. If it fails, and that's by no means certain (see my responses to the second and third issues below), then you are in no way diminished in my mind as an able and crafty opponent. You could have simply continued to bludgeon your way forward in the Philippines, Java, and perhaps the Marianas. Eventually, the allies would overcome the resistance or the game would come to the end of 1946. Instead you looked for the bold stroke that would make our game exciting and more interesting. I have been almost beside myself wondering what was going to happen (not done wondering yet) these past few turns. Hurrah, sir, Hurrah!

Second, Battle analysis. Ok, after I got over the shock of realizing that I just might be looking at my defeat coming a lot sooner than I had anticipated I spent a long time trying to decide just what I might be facing and what countermeasures I might have available. Since some things have now become evident by what happened in the last turn I will share with you some information that you would mightily liked to have had in early ’44. By early ’44 it had become evident to me that my empire was about to collapse. Attrition of planes and pilots had left me with almost none of either. Many squadrons were sitting around and could not even go to training for lack of planes. The IJN was in equally sad shape, with most capital ships with medium to high SYS damage and pending upgrades not carried out from as far back as ’42. Losses of CAs and CLs made the remaining crucial workhorses too valuable to risk as I had been doing in attempting to oppose your landings in ’43. Even DDs were in short supply. Yes, I still had all of my CVs but no squadrons and few escorts. I think an invasion of Luzon and or the Marianas at that point would not have been successfully opposed by me. One more big push by you and I would probably have resigned. But maybe you were exhausted too. You may remember some of my gloomy posts from that period. So I resolved to trade space for time, rebuild and only oppose the most critical points. By mid to late summer ’44 the rebuilding was essentially complete, new forces and equipment and advanced fighters had begun to arrive so the question now became how and when to use these tools to halt your advance? You supplied me with the answer to that question.

When I thought about your invasion force it seemed obvious to me that to make a base work so far from your logistical center you would have to bring more than enough of everything, with supplies enough to last for a long, long time. That explained the enormous amount of TFs. That made this a critically large investment and it would not make sense for you to come without every escort, CV and carrier-based plane you could scrape up. Fortunately for me I had my CVs reasonably close by. I couldn’t get to your fleet before landings commenced but could get there shortly afterward. If you could get a land base up and running you could fly in escort (the noxious P-38js were within transfer range) and maybe thumb your nose at me while you built up the airfield and then brought in bombers. I could not be certain how long the base (and you chose Shika) would hold after you landed ( not very long in my worst case estimation) so I had to react to try to take out the transports before you got enough stuff ashore to make the base viable in the long term. But first I would have to deal with the CVs. Although I had enjoyed some earlier good luck against your carriers you still had all of the Essex class and whatever else was available from the early war stuff and the large number of CVLs and CVEs. I thought the forces would be approximately equal in size. Any element of surprise I might have had was gone when my TFs tripped over your sub and alerted you to my approach. I decided that there was no time to dance around and finesse, I had to go for a knock-out. It seemed to me that you would probably bias your escort/CAP ratio toward CAP. That would be smart because if we traded losses of planes, pilots and ships you would win. I remembered how our earlier large fight near Midway resulted in a draw because the CAP consistently outnumbered the escort and slaughtered the airstrikes with almost no damage to the CVs. I resolved to load the CVs with mostly fighters (approximately 3-1), I set my CAP to 20%, and I tried to make up my deficiencies in CAP and strike aircraft with land-based LRCAP and land-based level bombers. You were rolling the dice with this invasion and now I was forced to roll the dice and bet everything too.

The first thing that happened was that my CV TFs reacted to yours even though I had reaction set to zero. This meant that carriers were not exactly where I had wanted them to be in relation to Shika but your carriers also reacted. It seems to me now that not all of your CV TFs reacted, just the ones with the big Essex class ships. This may have proved important because it created some separation between groups of your carriers and may have led to the somewhat piecemeal nature of your attacks.

Your attacks went in first but it was your first strike and later my first strike from the CVs that were to prove decisive and to create the conditions for what was a stunning, almost incredible result.

From my notes, your first strike consisted of 108 F6Fs, 16 FM-2s, 72 TBMs, and 86 SB2Cs. My CAP consisted of 109 Zekes, 45 Jacks, 52 Georges, and 8 Franks. The Jacks, Georges, and Franks were LRCAP from local bases. I watched the detail blow-by-blow screen for this attack, which took approx. 2 hours to complete on my computer. I observed the following:
1. I seemed to have a large qualitative edge with the Franks, Georges, and Jacks over the F6Fs. I attribute this to two factors. One is that the game seems to give some advantage to defending CAP versus escort. This makes sense although I cannot say if the advantage so given is of the right proportion. The second is what I might call the Corsair factor. When the game matches some planes against other planes it seems that there are cases where some planes seem almost invincible. This makes sense maybe if we put a Brewster Buffalo against oh, say, a Frank or a George. I’m not so sure it makes sense between relatively equal planes with pilots of relatively equal experience. My overall fighter pilot experience of the pilots going in to this battle was approx. 78 but many were in the 80s and 90s. I had been saving up for a long time and knew I had to send the best I had.
2. For whatever reason, the individual combats were proportionally greater to Franks/Georges/Jacks vs F6Fs than Zekes vs F6Fs than I might have expected. This was particularly noteworthy with the Franks who started with 8 planes, lost planes down to zero and kept on entering combat. There were 2 Frank groups of 36 on LRCAP so the 8 may have been a FOW number. I did notice that the F6Fs kept on fighting for a while after their count reached zero.
3. The CAP vs. escort battles continued until there were no escorts left. I think I really had an approximate 2:1 advantage in CAP over escort so the ratio of kills of maybe 4-1 or 5-1 seems high but not out of the range of possibilities, given the factors cited above. We probably also entered that twilight zone of large air battles where these lopsided, one-way results seem to occur.
4. After eliminating the escort the CAP shot down or forced withdrawal of all of the attack planes. That’s the large air battle factor again I think.
Your forces then commenced a series of mostly rag-tag, uncoordinated for the most part, strikes which were chewed up by that same CAP. The FM-2 Wildcats seemed to be almost not a factor as they were clearly overmatched. Fifteen strikes in all went in with disastrous results for the strike planes.

The next critical event was after the Japanese strikes commenced. After a few Bettys and Frances struck at the transports at Shika without effect the first and largest of the IJN strikes went after your carriers. From my notes, the strike consisted of 106 Grace, 76 Judys, and 484 Zekes. The CAP consisted of 189 F6Fs and 53 FM-2s. I was too tired to contemplate sitting through the blow-by-blow for this one so I just hit the button and watched the scrolling screen as your CAP chewed through my escort. My tactic of loading up the escort proved to be just enough so that even though you shot down almost 400 Zekes (again, the best I had to send) eventually the weight of numbers prevailed and the escort was eliminated. Now the fox was in the hen house and three carriers got hit pretty hard.

The IJN and IJNAF then launched a number of piecemeal, somewhat uncoordinated attacks of their own. Many were unescorted and often encountered no CAP. Some did get hit by CAP and were wiped out but some found unprotected ships and scored some crucial hits. I have no idea why sometimes your CAP was not to be seen over the CVEs that were still functional and presumably still had some fighters left.

In the afternoon and the next day the IJN followed up on the advantage gained and pounded every ship they could find with help from land-based bombers.

So, is this an anomalous result? It is so one-sided in terms of ships attacked/lost that one would be tempted to think so. The air-to-air losses do not seem completely out of line to me. Is it possible in this game for the Japanese to win in 1944 what is, in effect, a reverse Marianas Turkey Shoot kind of victory? I think that the game did not malfunction in the sense of a bug but rather this is just how the games works (or doesn’t work) when these large encounters occur.

Third, what do we do now? Well you certainly face a difficult situation but maybe not hopeless. If your forces can quickly take Shika and you can get planes to them they should be able to hold out for quite some time until sufficient cavalry arrives. Hell, for all I know you may have sufficient naval forces in the area to deliver some stunning reverses to me and realize that nightmare scenario I described above concerning B-29 bases on Sakkalin. You are still more powerful than me overall and will continue to receive more stuff than I. You have Corsairs and B-29s and more Essex carriers to come. Your lost squadrons will return even if their ships do not. You must decide if it is worth it to you to continue the fight. The Japanese player has the obligation to fight as long as the allied player wants to continue in order to make up for all of the one-sided fun the Japanese player gets in 1942. It’s your call sir and I will support whatever you decide.

If you want to post about this turn please do so and feel free to use any or all of this somewhat rambling but I hope somewhat coherent monolog.

Once again, cheers to you for going for the bold stroke. It looks like it may not come off but the greater shame would be not to try.

Dave

(in reply to Gilligan)
Post #: 21
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 10:11:28 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Dave,

Thanks for adding all this very helpful information.

Its interesting to see that Japan can put together a really strong strike group that late in the game.

I don't see any problem with the result, both sides sent huge numbers of planes into a very large important battle and one of them lost.

The fact that in the real war the Americans did this to the Japanese and in this battle Japan did it to the Americans does not mean it's not ok.

The problem with his strategy is it falls between too stools instead of sitting on one or the other.

He did not raid or recon so that he could get strategic suprise.

But he can't get strategic suprise because the target is so deep into Japanese terrirtory that you have time to react.

So he ends up with the worst of both worlds and suffers a major defeat.


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Post #: 22
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 10:32:01 PM   
WhoCares


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Not to forget that these are exactly the battles we want to see in our games - just not on the receiving end

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Post #: 23
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 10:39:10 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwbradley
hat's off to you for having the imagination necessary to see this possibility and for having the large appendages necessary to attempt it. If it fails, and that's by no means certain (see my responses to the second and third issues below), then you are in no way diminished in my mind as an able and crafty opponent. You could have simply continued to bludgeon your way forward in the Philippines, Java, and perhaps the Marianas. Eventually, the allies would overcome the resistance or the game would come to the end of 1946. Instead you looked for the bold stroke that would make our game exciting and more interesting. I have been almost beside myself wondering what was going to happen (not done wondering yet) these past few turns. Hurrah, sir, Hurrah!


Get a room, you two...

Old art of ridiculing and taunting your opponent in mails, if not in public, seems to have completely disappeared in this time of political correctness (joking)

Seriously, thanks for your long explanation, and congrats on very good game. What is the date in your game, and major losses so far? Seems like very interesting game overall, and you got very far date-wise.

O.

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(in reply to dwbradley)
Post #: 24
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/8/2005 10:41:43 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
The most important tactical factor in the outcome was the IJN only splitting into 3-4 strikes (in the right order, all your escorts first) while the USN, for whatever reason, decided to split into about 15 strikes. If you have any TBMs left load your CAG as a 180lb GP.

Shooting down the entire USN CAP on the first strike didn't hurt either.

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 25
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/9/2005 12:22:35 AM   
dwbradley

 

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Joined: 3/21/2004
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One important aspect I neglected to mention is that the game is being played with 2-day turns. So from the time of detection to the start of landings was two turns. The combat discussed above occurred onthe third turn after detection. I really was in a panic and was indeed fortunate to have forces near enough of suitable size to contest this move.

Game is Tanaka scenario started under 1.3 and continued with upgrades to 1.6. We started in December 2004 and have progressed in game time to October 1944.

Major actions? Let me think about that and maybe I'll post a summary and maybe Gilligan would be willing to comment. I tend to play my cards pretty close to the chest so I don't give anything away, but we'll see.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 26
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/9/2005 12:25:37 AM   
ADavidB


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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

Game is Tanaka scenario started under 1.3 and continued with upgrades to 1.6. We started in December 2004 and have progressed in game time to October 1944.


Okay, you are definitely not going to want Gilligan to quit at this point...

Dave

(in reply to dwbradley)
Post #: 27
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/9/2005 12:55:16 AM   
1275psi

 

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Joined: 4/17/2005
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Well, as a long time japanese player, UV and WITP, nothing encourages a person more than this - so if I am good enough, and my opponent makes a mistake -I have a chance.

Of course I have to be good enough.

But this has convinced me to put some good pilots into a "bank" for when the franks arrive.

My final opinion of the result above - it really just shows great japanese play, ballsy allied play -and the wonderful vagrancies of war! -with out which we could all just read books instead of playing WITP

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 28
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/9/2005 1:11:06 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwbradley
Game is Tanaka scenario started under 1.3 and continued with upgrades to 1.6. We started in December 2004 and have progressed in game time to October 1944.


Did Tanaka significantly boost Japanese pilot pool/replacements/experience for his scenario?

O.

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Post #: 29
RE: COmments on these combat results anyone? - 9/9/2005 1:37:38 AM   
dwbradley

 

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Joined: 3/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: dwbradley
Game is Tanaka scenario started under 1.3 and continued with upgrades to 1.6. We started in December 2004 and have progressed in game time to October 1944.


Did Tanaka significantly boost Japanese pilot pool/replacements/experience for his scenario?

O.

I don't think so but at any rate I quickly squandered what I had. This was/is my first PBEM WITP game and it has been very much an OJT kind of experience. It was months into the game as I struggled with pilot management that I stumbled across the whole area of pilot training. Gilligan has also been most helpful in my education, with many stinging lessons early on (ASW/sub activity and mine warfare come to mind but there were more).

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 30
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