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June 1815 - 7/14/2005 11:25:18 PM   
ptan54

 

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Anyone tried this?

Almost impossible! The Austrians have 200,000+ men and France has severe cashflow problems. In real life, Napoleon was hoping to defeat Prussia and Britain quickly, banking (perhaps correctly) on Schwarzenberg being slow. But the Austrians charge across Switzerland with great speed! They quickly become the main threat, not Blucher-Wellington!

Furthermore, upon trying the historical strategy of moving Armee du Nord I and II into Flanders, what actually happens (tried this 4 times) is that a battle first occurs in Lille (invading Anglo-Prussian army), which I defeat, and millions of Austrians charging into Eastern France. Napoleon's Armee du Nord has to fall back to Paris and the invasion of Flanders has to be abandoned.

Perhaps:

1) Make Austria slower?
2) Maybe I have no idea what troops move first in any given turn. Why should the Prussians enter Lille before Ney's Armee du Nord II enters Flanders? I have had these situations happen to me multiple times, moving army groups to adjacent provinces which I think are about to be attacked. They arrive only AFTER my existing small army in that province has been defeated. Since there is no option to retreat, my newly arriving small army (but had it arrived earlier - I even used forced march to no avail - the combined army would have been large enough to win) is also compelled to fight and lose. I suggest perhaps giving speed bonuses to troops moving on home ground. French troops moving from Paris to Troyes should move a lot faster than enemy troops moving within France - resistance is surely an important factor!
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RE: June 1815 - 7/14/2005 11:31:59 PM   
Naomi

 

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I'm not sure if an army or a corps with leaders attached to it can really speed up its movement in the strategic phase. If not, I shall suggest the leaders' initiative ratings weigh on their troops' strategic movement. In this way, it will go a long way to easing your dilemma.

(in reply to ptan54)
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RE: June 1815 - 7/14/2005 11:36:21 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54
2) Maybe I have no idea what troops move first in any given turn. Why should the Prussians enter Lille before Ney's Armee du Nord II enters Flanders? I have had these situations happen to me multiple times, moving army groups to adjacent provinces which I think are about to be attacked. They arrive only AFTER my existing small army in that province has been defeated. Since there is no option to retreat, my newly arriving small army (but had it arrived earlier - I even used forced march to no avail - the combined army would have been large enough to win) is also compelled to fight and lose. I suggest perhaps giving speed bonuses to troops moving on home ground. French troops moving from Paris to Troyes should move a lot faster than enemy troops moving within France - resistance is surely an important factor!


Movement should be based on army composition and leader initiative. Also, if you have units adjacent when a battle starts, even if they have not arrived yet you can always try to call them as reinforcements to arrive during the battle.

Regards,

- Erik


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(in reply to ptan54)
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RE: June 1815 - 7/14/2005 11:41:31 PM   
malcolm_mccallum

 

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Unfortunately it should be nearly impossible.

The game cannot factor in the political concerns of the different nations that napoleon was counting on.

If he beat Prussia, wouldn't Britain abandon them and fall back on the ports like the British character had always seemed to be?
If he knocked back the Prussians and British, wouldn't Belgium and Holland change to his side?
At the Congress of Vienna, France, Britain, and Austria had just signed a treaty that was effectively against PRussia and Russia. Napoleon had reason to hope that Prussia and Russia would be less than enthusiastic about allowing that treaty to flourish when napoleon was beaten again.
Austria, as usual, was in no hurry to throw itself at the French. They were not advocates of total warfare and their presence on the borders was mostly, I believe, a show. They had little heart for marching on Paris and would have been willing to negotiate if Prussia and France were beaten, especially if there was animosity from the Prussians because of it.
Almost nobody was planning an aggressive assault on France, I don't think. I expect that the allies were really thinking that if they could mass for an invasion, France would throw Napoleon out themselves when he had nowhere to go. That was a cleaner solution than bringing about the deaths of tens of thousands of people.

(in reply to ptan54)
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RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 12:26:40 AM   
Mr. Z


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This is a very difficult question to deal with. Nearly any outcomes we hard-wired in would have been controversial. I suppose we could make the allies much more likely to surrender even after a single battle loss, but we found that the general historical consensus is that Napoleon's time had simply come. But we would consider tweaking the scenario somewhat for a future patch. I agree that as it stands, it is almost impossible for Napoleon to win on the field without allies (though he can win in Flanders in the short term).

(in reply to malcolm_mccallum)
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RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 1:16:37 AM   
Naomi

 

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If, in this scenario, France cannot but concede defeat, this scenario is on a very high scale of history reproduction indeed.

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RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 1:37:18 AM   
malcolm_mccallum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naomi

If, in this scenario, France cannot but concede defeat, this scenario is on a very high scale of history reproduction indeed.


It says more about the scope of the game. Historically, Napoleon may have won had Grouchy just put spurs to horse. The whole coalition may have collapsed due to political factors.

This game can't reflect those nuances though and even if you had all nations played by human players it might not work since they are there to play, afterall, and war weariness and other factors don't manifest the same way.

Amusing semi-off-topic anecdote: Once upon a time I had 6 friends call me up and invite me over to play Diplomacy with them. Unknown to me they had all gotten together ahead of time and agreed that they all wanted nothing more than to beat me and that they would form a 6 person alliance until I was destroyed and humiliated. I won that game. They couldn't all fight me so some got bored and could be persuaded to attack one another and then their indignation, mistrust and fury got the better of them and they were soon fighting amongst themselves.

No computer game could ever hope to achieve that sort of human response to events and entreaties. War is a continuation of diplomacy by other means and diplomacy is all about dealing with people. Wargames try very hard to mimic this behaviour and put numbers on chances of actions happening when triggers are fired but in the end we're fooling ourselves that we are really simulating warfare.

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 7
RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 2:00:28 AM   
carnifex


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quote:

destroyed and humiliated.



Nice friends !!!


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Post #: 8
RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 3:32:14 AM   
Ralegh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54
....
2) Maybe I have no idea what troops move first in any given turn. Why should the Prussians enter Lille before Ney's Armee du Nord II enters Flanders? ...


Use the "Forced March" setting on the army/corps - that will increase their initiative on the strategic map. I had to do this as Russia to get the 3rd Army to move at all. Mix of divisions in the corps and leader values all impact an army/corps initiative value.

Initiative governs the sequence of movement and the probability of carrying out the movement order you gave the unit. Difficulty of carrying out the movement order is affected by terrain, weather, and ownership of the province (home; friendly, enemy) - so the factors you discuss are already in the system.

Try to turn Forced Marchcing off before they get into combat, though, or they will start the battle fatigued.

I see two potential issues with the scenario - would you please consider them?
a) Should we start the forces in slightly different areas?
b) I think France should have all the Marching upgrades by this point - does she? (there are three +10 to strategic inititive upgrades, and the Rapid March upgrade which gets you an early movement) - perhaps there is a bug with the Rapid March upgrade?


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RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 10:39:18 AM   
ptan54

 

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France should most definitely get some marching bonus, perhaps as early as 1805 when the Grand Armee was at its peak. Or perhaps restrict this bonus to certain commanders?

Perhaps the Russians and Austrians should have their troops further from France to stop them from getting to the field of battle too early - it should at least take until August or September before they've massed enough troops to march into France.

I will add that even using Forced March doesn't help the Lille army get to Flanders on time - I even had Davout in charge instead of Ney (that would've probably been a match winner in itself!).

Irrelevant point - Played as Russia in the standard campaign and massed in Pressburg. Beat the French army at what was meant to be Austerlitz with ease. Britain sent a massive army into France and captured Paris, forcing France to surrender.

Political factors might be hard to simulate, but shouldn't a French surrender to the Allies result in the Bourbons being restored and France being friendly with everyone (at least Britain, Prussia and Austria)?

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 10
RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 11:02:48 AM   
mogami


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Hi, If you keep trying the same thing and the same thing keeps occuring...try something new. You know the Austrians are coming send someone to greet them.
In 1815 beside the Austrians there were also around 115,000 Russians marching toward France. (Nappy returned in March and by May the Russians had passed through Boheima enroute to France. )
Waterloo was more then trying to keep the Anglo-Prussian forces apart. It was also an attempt to defeat this part of the much larger Allied Army before the Austrians and Russians arrived. Behind that first 115,000 Russians another 300,000 were gathering.
The Russians held a grand review in France in Sept so any notion they can't get there sooner is not historical. (The review was the first herd plus the later larger herd) Alex enjoyed showing off the size of his Army to the rest of Europe.
If the French had won at Waterloo they would have been required to make a march and engage the Austrians and Russians within weeks not months. The Russians would likely by then be busy reducing the French frontieer forts.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 11
RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 5:52:15 PM   
Mr. Z


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quote:

a) Should we start the forces in slightly different areas?

[gasp] Do you realize how much research went into this??

But seriously--do you have any specific suggestions?

quote:

b) I think France should have all the Marching upgrades by this point - does she? (there are three +10 to strategic inititive upgrades, and the Rapid March upgrade which gets you an early movement) - perhaps there is a bug with the Rapid March upgrade

Those are interesting issues. I don't know the answer to them.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 12
RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 5:55:01 PM   
Mr. Z


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quote:

Perhaps the Russians and Austrians should have their troops further from France to stop them from getting to the field of battle too early - it should at least take until August or September before they've massed enough troops to march into France.

Well, technically I don't think it would be accurate placement, but I suppose we could consider it for the sake of gameplay.

quote:

I will add that even using Forced March doesn't help the Lille army get to Flanders on time - I even had Davout in charge instead of Ney (that would've probably been a match winner in itself!).

Can't you call them in as reinforcements once in battle?

quote:

Political factors might be hard to simulate, but shouldn't a French surrender to the Allies result in the Bourbons being restored and France being friendly with everyone (at least Britain, Prussia and Austria)?

Sadly, we can't currently simulate changes of government.

(in reply to ptan54)
Post #: 13
RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 8:58:34 PM   
Alex Gilbert

 

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As I understand it, Austria at the time was very protective of the army, essentially not being able to replace it and requiring it to suppress all the ethnic minorities. Perhaps this could be reflected by lowering Austrian national morale so that a single large defeat would compel them to seek peace with France. I think this is the closest to Napoleon's hope at the time.

Perhaps the manpower values could also be adjusted to reflect the difficulty of raising further Austrian armies.


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Post #: 14
RE: June 1815 - 7/15/2005 9:51:48 PM   
Naomi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert

As I understand it, Austria at the time was very protective of the army, essentially not being able to replace it and requiring it to suppress all the ethnic minorities. Perhaps this could be reflected by lowering Austrian national morale so that a single large defeat would compel them to seek peace with France. I think this is the closest to Napoleon's hope at the time.

Perhaps the manpower values could also be adjusted to reflect the difficulty of raising further Austrian armies.



I wish Metternich would have agreed to that.

(in reply to Alex Gilbert)
Post #: 15
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