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China - too easy to bomb to nothingness?

 
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China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/11/2005 10:44:18 AM   
JanSorensen

 

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Maybe I just havent seen the light yet - but sofar China seems too easy to simply bomb to nothingness for the Japanese. Usually their infrastructure first followed by their army.

Is that the experience others have too?

Mind, I am not asking for help on playing China - I am perfectly contend just to hear someone say they feel China isnt a lost cause against competent Japanese play.

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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/11/2005 11:40:51 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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First - try not to build supplies as Chinese, ever. Transport LL supplies from WA, or let Russians produce supplies for China (while being supplied by WA in return).

Having said that, I think if Japanese player is very determined he will have whole of China, but he has to be VERY determined and this usually means he will not have forces to use elsewhere. Unless you go for some variant of 70 PP strategy without activating Russia (this strategy is *always* a gamble in my opinion, and I played it dozen of times), I think it does not pay to go all out in China as Japan.

O.


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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/11/2005 3:11:48 PM   
JanSorensen

 

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Oleg

I appreciate your insight - but allow me to counter.

I am not concerned with the Japanese conquering China - I am concerned with them bombing first the Chinese production and then the Chinese units with only moderate effort expended. Before the Chinese can even build their first round of units several of their factories and resources have already been bombed. Often the Chinese is left with Chung King for production. If they move their factories to "safety" then their resources are simply bombed. If the Chinese try to repair them they are just bombed again before they can actively produce anything.

Once thats done the Japanese airforce can then start chewing on the Chinese land force - which will dwindle to near nothing come late 42.

As said already - maybe I am just missing something but the odds of this happening seem quite stacked in favor of the Japanese.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/11/2005 5:05:19 PM   
Fazman


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It's a hollow effort on the part of japan to only bomb the Chinese if their plans are elsewhere (Southern RP's or Russia) They'll sit at a dozen or so RP's till they make their move all the while spending what? 8-12 supply over those 8 or so turns. that supply will be missed. not to mention lost production on at least a couple air unit damages.

Eventually, Japan must commit ground forces elsewhere.
If the Chinese player is prudent and withdrew and saved supply he is then in a position to cause Japan some grief. This of course is very dependant on LL from their allies.

It's a long game for Japan if AV is missed before the US enters the war...supply wasted in China can come back to haunt them. Supply spent repairing Russian or southern RP's that replace the couple China can sneak back (not to mention the garrison costs) could turn out to be a better trade in the long run?

So by all means if I'm China ...come and spend some bombs on me !!

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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/11/2005 7:08:41 PM   
Joel Billings


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China must build only AA at first, and pull back to defend the fewest number of areas with heavy AA concentrations. With a little luck, even against a skilled Japanese player they can inflict pain on the Japanese airforce. That being said, yes, China can and should be reduced to a very weak position by the Japanese airforce. At some point if an attack on inland China is not made, then the airforce will get distracted when Japan goes off to do other things, and China can get back into the game. China was made a player for certain game balance/technical reasons. It should only be played independently when first learning the game. After that, we expect it to be team played along with either the WA or SU since it really isn't a lot of fun to play only China.

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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/16/2005 6:58:57 PM   
aletoledo


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obviously I agree with joel, I build AA in every factory turn one. this means playing any infantry on hold to accomplish this. this only hurts me when japan does a land invasion and if that happens, I think I can breath a sigh of relief for russia and forget about the chinese the rest of the game.

quote:

It's a hollow effort on the part of japan to only bomb the Chinese if their plans are elsewhere

I disagree. its nice to use japans army elsewhere, but the only problem is the chinese potential for attack. if I can bomb china into nothing, then all that I have to contend with is their starting units (which can be eaten away gradually). however just ignoring china altogether always leads to a problem 7-8 turns down the road, either with them attack or threatening to.

IMO china's best strat is to push everything forward and occupy japans troops early in the game. I see a lot of people pull china's factories and troops back from the front thinking they're going to save them for some future event, which of course never comes.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/20/2005 11:44:00 PM   
sajbalk


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I haven't yet figured out a good way to gather any Chinese offenisve power against the Japanese. The only solution appears to be to gather all troops and AA in one territory and hope the Japanse lose a few to the AA.

In my opinion, the Japanese planes all need to start with a lower air to ground attack modifier.



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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/21/2005 4:38:22 AM   
Doobious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

I haven't yet figured out a good way to gather any Chinese offenisve power against the Japanese. The only solution appears to be to gather all troops and AA in one territory and hope the Japanse lose a few to the AA.

In my opinion, the Japanese planes all need to start with a lower air to ground attack modifier.




I disagree. You shouldn't be able to gather offensive capability. It's China cir. 1940.

Not industralized. No real manufacturing base.

China is esentially a non-factor in the begining war, and should be.

It is essentialy a neutral country. Can't attack but extra nasty in defense. Very nice milita defense bonuses.

Hold out... Period... Never attack...
until Japan pulls troops out of costal provinces for other adventures.

Then you have a chance to rebuild. China can tip the war.

If WA supplies you... your in good shape.

(in reply to sajbalk)
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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 7/21/2005 11:42:22 AM   
aauminki

 

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Best defensive CH strategy that I can think of is pooling everything into Changsa or Chungking. Chungking if you want to preserve units, and Changsa is you want to put the pressure a little on JP to keep garrisoning the coastal provinces.

If the Jap is intent on taking China, he'll do so no matter what you do - in that case it is, in my view, better to present a big party that he needs to decimate first, or face a risk to his loc inland.

(in reply to Doobious)
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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 8/4/2005 5:03:56 AM   
PzB74


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My effort to save China came to naught when me and Wobbly had a go. Produced only AA and pulled into a Chungking and the other industrial hexes.
Bombed out my industry and rolled over my land units with very little effort. Should be more difficult for Japan in the early turns me thinks!

Chinese garrison units should be able to live of the land and be able to move without providing custom made supplies.
It's not very easy to destroy all the rice paddies in that huge country, is it

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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 8/4/2005 1:10:54 PM   
von_Schmidt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

My effort to save China came to naught when me and Wobbly had a go. Produced only AA and pulled into a Chungking and the other industrial hexes.
Bombed out my industry and rolled over my land units with very little effort. Should be more difficult for Japan in the early turns me thinks!

Chinese garrison units should be able to live of the land and be able to move without providing custom made supplies.
It's not very easy to destroy all the rice paddies in that huge country, is it



The price Japan pays for pursuing an offensive in China is not combat losses against the Chinese army but burning up of resources for combat and movement, producing garrisons and providing supply for those garrisons.
Setting back preparations for the *real* war against the WA.

Supplies does not just cover food; what about (cooking) fuel, ammo, replacement shoes for marching through a big-ass country?
;-)

-von Schmidt


< Message edited by von_Schmidt -- 8/4/2005 1:11:45 PM >

(in reply to PzB74)
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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 8/4/2005 3:20:07 PM   
PzB74


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My point was that Chinese irregular troops should be able to live of the land like guerrillas! Lots of small production facilities that would
be impossible to destroy.

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RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 8/4/2005 4:17:39 PM   
von_Schmidt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

My point was that Chinese irregular troops should be able to live of the land like guerrillas! Lots of small production facilities that would
be impossible to destroy.


Do you mean that in game terms Chinese militia should move and attack without using supplies? (The partisans represent Chinese irregulars/guerilla's in occupied territory. )

Still not quite sure about the logic behind that; succesful guerilla movements tend to be supplied by a friendly country, not just living off the land like local farmers.

Also, a foraging unit would spend a large amount of time actually looking/plundering for food, decreasing efficiency.

IIRC the Japanese easily won every ground engagement against the Chinese IRL, so your game experience in that regard is not too far off the mark.

Regards,

von Schmidt

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 13
RE: China - too easy to bomb to nothingness? - 8/4/2005 4:40:06 PM   
PzB74


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In reality it would be impossible to Japan to bomb China's infrastructure away.. It's way to simple to do so in the game.
One way to correct this would be to let the Chinese militia live of the land. They were able to supply their own units during the war..so why not let them move freely?
They're useless on the attack anyway, they're there simply to be in the way as you say.

Regular army units should still require supply as usual. The result would thus give the Chinese a slightly bigger chance of survival..without giving them an offensive edge.
Something I think would be good for game balance.

Just my 2c...



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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
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