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WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 8:50:07 PM   
Kung Karl

 

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In this game winter is the first turn of the year. So if I say that I was stopped at moscow winter 1941 it is actually the first turn of 1941 because the turn after Winter 1941 is Spring 1941.

This makes the game very confusing. If I get stopped outside moscow in the historical timeline that would be winter 1941 in real life, but in this game it will be fall 1941 or winter 1942 right?

Why did the devs do it as this? I understand that it iw winter in January but so is it also in December. There is no reason as I see it for haveing the winter turn as the number one turn of the year. This way you can't get stopped outside moscow in winter 1941 because hat turn is ight before barbarossa begins usaully.

Can't this be fixed in a patch?

Can sombody explain why this is a better system than the usual winter at the end of a year?
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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 9:29:07 PM   
ratprince


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Kung Karl;

In the Northern Hemispshere the following are the seasonal dates:

Spring Equinox - March 21(22) starts the first day of spring
Summer Solstice - June 21 starts the first day of summer
Autumnal Equinox - September 21(22) starts the first day of fall
Winter Solstice - December 22 starts the first day of winter

The end of a calendar year is December 31 (Roman/Western World)

Winter starts eight days before the end of a calendar year.

Winter goes from Dec 22 - March 21(22), that means 81 days of winter take place in the FIRST three months of the calendar year...only eight days of winter take place at the last month of the calendar year. THUS -

The seasons go as follows in relation to the numerical sequence of months in a calendar year:

WINTER (JAN-MAR)
SPRING (APR-JUN)
SUMMER (JUL-SEPT)
FALL (OCT-DEC)

---thus it follows the game mechanic ----

WI '41 (is the first turn of a 1941)
SP '41 (is the second turn of 1941)
SU '41 (is the third turn of 1941)
FA '41 (is the last turn of 1941)


It is a comon misconception (at least in the United States) that winter is the last part of a calendar year. That is incorrect. While it does begin to get cold and snow occasionally during the fall months, "Winter" is actually the first three months of any given calendar year.

Hope this helps!

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 9:54:14 PM   
Kung Karl

 

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Thanks for the explanation. I still think it is confusing and it would be much better to have the standard dates even if they are wrong IRL.

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 10:37:20 PM   
ratprince


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Any time Karl;

Still not sure what you mean by "standard dates"..? The game does use standard calendar dates and attributes the correct season to them. Did I misunderstand what you mean by standard date?

confused?

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 11:09:57 PM   
simone.donnini


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The date system is confusing. Surely you can easily pick it up, but its confusing

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 11:13:12 PM   
ratprince


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hehehe...

Simone;

I was confused about what Karl was saying...not the date system. The date system is accurate and fine, not sure what the confusion is actually about?

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 11:18:42 PM   
Uncle_Joe


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Well, in most games that use 'quarterly' turns, the sequence is usually Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter. Games like 3rd Reich have been doing this for some time. There is a natural inclination to think that the same scheme would be carried forward.

Personally, I have no problems with it either way. It took all of 4 turns to adapt to the change in WaW.

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/23/2005 11:28:02 PM   
ratprince


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hmmm...even in "quarterly" turns, the system would still hold. Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall. Not sure where the confusion lay. I suppose, from a cultural viewpoint, some people consider "spring" starting with January? I dont know about any one else, but Indiana is "darn" cold in January! Spring hits here about mid-March.

The confusion probably stems from mean temperatures in northern hemisphere beginning to "drop" around October/November. This probably gives the appearance and inclination for people to think of it as "winter."

Regardless of other game's definitions of the seasonal sequence, the actual seasons match up with what 2by3 have done in GGWAW....

later

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 12:52:38 AM   
Warfare1


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The Germans were stopped before the gates of Moscow on December 6, 1941.

This means that the Soviets stopped the Germans in the fall of 1941, and not the winter...


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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 3:05:38 AM   
ratprince


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Right on Warfare! You got it!

I guess the problem is that people are confusing the season "winter" with the ephemeral "winter-time" The season is a very specific, scientific solar path that delineates the Earth's path around the sun and the moon around the Earth. The term "Russian-Winter" does not necessarily mean that actual season of winter, but rather the effects of the higher latitude and general "snowy" climate of the steppes of Russia. Heck, winter has a completely different meaning for the aussies and southern hemisphere inhabitants!

"Winter-like" weather can occur in all sorts of climes at all sorts of times through the year. But...to be exact, the actual solar/lunar season of winter starts Dec 21ish and goes until March 21ish.

later

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 4:50:46 AM   
Alan_Bernardo

 

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>hmmm...even in "quarterly" turns, the system would still hold. Winter, Spring, Summer, >Fall. Not sure where the confusion lay. I suppose, from a cultural viewpoint, some >people consider "spring" starting with January? I dont know about any one else, but >Indiana is "darn" cold in January! Spring hits here about mid-March.

Spring starts in mid-March? That's interesting. Here in Ohio in mid-April, we're expecting 6-12" of snow by Monday morning. :)

Alanb


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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 5:55:27 AM   
ratprince


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hehehe! ok....ok.... I stand corrected!

It is snowing here in Indiana as well! arghhhhh!! Darn Indian summers!!!!

(the snow falls as I write this....irony?)


Later Alan!

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 7:29:59 AM   
pyrhic

 

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the winter season is culturally seen as the end of the year/cycle, not the beginning of the new one. It's a cultural tradition in more than western society - you want to argue that, i'll start quoting poems and authors ;) . Logically, you would expect spring = turn 1, summer 2, fall 3 and winter 4 (and notice that none of the campaigns start in the winter).

It's easy enough to learn, but really i agree it's needlessly confusing. Why make the player 'relearn' something that really isn't significant, it just puts a false barrier(however small) between the player and playing the game...it'd be like a jar manufacturer making their jars open by turning clockwise(to the right),,,,

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 7:38:57 AM   
ratprince


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hmmm...cultural "tradition?" I dont know about that

I would say that "many" people tend to think that winter is the end of the year, but for me, at least, winter here has always been Januar, February, March...and as Alan said...April as well. Fall is October (falling leaves..) November (thanksgiving) and December (pre x-mas)

I am not sure I agree with the jar analogy....but it is a good one!

later pyrhic!

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 3:04:08 PM   
pyrhic

 

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We agree what months winter typically occurs in. However, i would say the majority of people think of winter of any particular year following the fall and not preceeding the spring.

For example, we have just went through the winter of 2004, not the winter of 2005, even though Jan-Mar occurred in 2005. The reason might just be, as you said, that even though the bulk of the elapsed days occur in 2005, it actually STARTED in the final days of 2004.

as for cultural tradition, you were unaware how many societies draw parallels between life cycle and seasonal changes? Where spring represents the beginning, birth and youth; Summer, maturity; Fall as aging and decline; and Winter as ending and death?

Now let's look at the fine line between saturday night and sunday morning, shall we?

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 3:38:47 PM   
Kung Karl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyrhic
For example, we have just went through the winter of 2004, not the winter of 2005, even though Jan-Mar occurred in 2005. The reason might just be, as you said, that even though the bulk of the elapsed days occur in 2005, it actually STARTED in the final days of 2004.



That is what I have been trying to say. It feels weird to see it says winter 1941 and barbaosssa hasn't even begun yet. Everyone knows that the Germans were stopped in the winter 1941. That is at least how it is expressed in books, documentaries etc. That is why it is confusing to have winter 1941 occur before the invasion of the SOviet union begin.

I don't see the point in changing the dates in this game. All it does is messing up the immersion. I want winter 1941 to occur after I have invaded the sovet union. Also, Stalingrad should be in winter 1942 and not winter 1943 as it is now.

I hope everyone understand me now. I am not angry or anything, just don't see the point with the current system in this game.

(in reply to pyrhic)
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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 5:09:38 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kung Karl
That is what I have been trying to say. It feels weird to see it says winter 1941 and barbaosssa hasn't even begun yet. Everyone knows that the Germans were stopped in the winter 1941. That is at least how it is expressed in books, documentaries etc.


That's just a metaphor. There were mountains of snow, temperatures below zero etc. But technically failed German Typhoon offensive was started - and stopped, and counter-attacked - during fall.

In my language name for month of November literally translates as "The Cold Month", though it's 100% in Fall/Autumn.

I have no problems with that, and I am among those who think current system in the game is logical.

O.

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 5:46:15 PM   
ratprince


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Thanks Oleg! (glad someone else understands!)

I guess we just have to agree to disagree with the "Winter is the end of the year" people!

But seriously, not sure what the misunderstanding is? I, even as a child, knew that winter was at the BEGINNING of a calendar year... I mean the whole thing is a big circle anyway!

As to the birth/rebirth (stuff) pyrhic, whether the birth period starts in the 2nd quarter of the year or the first....it's all the same. What we are talking about is a relative association between the Roman calendric assessment of time and the correlation to the relative temerature and precipitation. Seasonal names are merely a grouping of similar temp/precip days into one amalgamation. Lets just think of the date, not the seasonal symbolism....

later

Mike

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 7:24:27 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Hey, after you guys are finished here would any of you care to join me in a discussion on how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/24/2005 11:35:58 PM   
Kung Karl

 

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Guess we have to blame it on all books and documentaries that says Germany was halted in the winter of 1941.

I will now not have any problem to try and sieze moscow before the winter 1941 since the winter already is over. Whew, nice to get the stress taken away.

Anyway, I am of to the front! (Or bunker HQ is more correct for this game)

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 1:14:33 AM   
marc420

 

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Leave the dates in the game as they are. They are perfect.



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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 2:49:13 AM   
hakon

 

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For those (few) that didnt know:

Winter as end of the year dates all the way back to the roman age (whose calendar we still use, slightly modified by Pope Gregory XIII).

In the old roman world, the year begun in march, which can still be noted from the naming of the months september (seventh), october (eight), november (nineth) and december (tenth).

http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~snlrc/encyclopaedia_romana/calendar/romancalendar.html


< Message edited by hakon -- 4/25/2005 3:02:18 AM >

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 12:21:20 PM   
Sombra

 

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Only the many confusions here show me that the system used in WAW here i not though easy to grasp.

I think if you ask people in the street 95% will answer you that a year srats with spring and not with winter.

Perhaps it qould have been easier if the moves where named 1 st quarter , 2nd . quarter etc. no false associations by many players.


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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 8:09:27 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

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Winter? What is this "Winter" you speak of? Here in Miami we only have two seasons: Hot Summer and cool Summer.

Even to this day I sometimes get confused between Fall and Spring since they are both about the same (temperature hot but not too hot).

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 8:51:13 PM   
carnifex


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quote:

I think if you ask people in the street 95% will answer you that a year srats with spring and not with winter.


DAMN YOU VIVALDI !!1!!!

This confusion is all his fault, the bastard!

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 9:06:46 PM   
QBeam

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

It is a comon misconception (at least in the United States) that winter is the last part of a calendar year. That is incorrect. While it does begin to get cold and snow occasionally during the fall months, "Winter" is actually the first three months of any given calendar year.

Hope this helps!

Mike


It's not a "misconception," it's a "convention." Just as in Europe dates are given day-month-year, but in the U.S. they're given month-day-year. Neither is correct--it's just a convention. It certainly is not any more rational to order the seasons "Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall" on the grounds that the majority of the Winter follows the calendar year--ordering them according to the date on which they first appear during a calandar year is every bit as rational an ordering. On the other hand, Winter has been thought of as the "end of the year" for thousands of years--before we even had this calendar, in fact. It is, therefore, the natural convention to put Winter at the end of the order.

But what causes trouble is when people don't follow conventions. Personally, I prefer listing dates day-month-year, because it makes more sense to the mathematician in me. But I assure you, my refusal to submit to the American convention has caused me nothing but headache. Likewise, WWII references, and especially wargames, have long adhered to the American convention. (I suppose it's another case of "to the victor, the spoils.") I've also found it somewhat confusing and quite irritating that W@W doesn't obey the "Winter last" convention. It's especially annoying because following that convention would have meant that the first year of the game was a complete year, which would make it a bit easier to calculate what turn you're on.

Obviously, this is not a big deal, but it's just a pointless source of confusion. Sadly, I expect it would generate more confusion to try to remedy it at this point...

< Message edited by QBeam -- 4/25/2005 9:11:30 PM >

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 9:15:50 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Qbeam, I agree on a day/month/year issue, BUT...

you "Winter as end of the year" guys have to realize it's not the end of the year that would make problems with your proposed system, it's the BEGINNING of the year that would be totally senseless.

In your proposed system, Spring 41 turn would comprise of January, February, March - hardly a "springtime" anywhere on north hemisphere, and certainly not a trace of "spring" in Russia (which was mentioned so many times as prime example of "winter end of the year" logic).

Summer 41 would be April, May, and June - again hardly "summertime" anywhere I know.

July, August and September - hottest months of the year, would be Fall/Autumn????

All this glaring and obvious mistakes just so that you could accomodate your beloved winter in October, November and December, ie Christmas time? Come on...

(Yes, instead of Vivaldi I blame X-Mas with its snowy, Santa imagery for this confusion.)

O.

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 9:20:54 PM   
QBeam

 

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Actually, the seasons are not well correlated with the temperature/precipitation trends. That's because the seasons are defined by the length of the days, rather than by the long-term weather trends.

Obviously, the longer the days, the more energy is added to the local system, and so, generally, longer days means warmer weather. In a system in which heat was not retained, the two sinusoids would be synchronized. But because the Earth's atmosphere retains heat energy, there is a phase difference introduced. So, as we all know from experience, the hottest part of the Summer comes weeks after the Summer Solstice, and the coldest part of the Winter comes weeks after the Winter Solstice.

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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 9:27:25 PM   
QBeam

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Qbeam, I agree on a day/month/year issue, BUT...

you "Winter as end of the year" guys have to realize it's not the end of the year that would make problems with your proposed system, it's the BEGINNING of the year that would be totally senseless.

In your proposed system, Spring 41 turn would comprise of January, February, March - hardly a "springtime" anywhere on north hemisphere, and certainly not a trace of "spring" in Russia (which was mentioned so many times as prime example of "winter end of the year" logic).

Summer 41 would be April, May, and June - again hardly "summertime" anywhere I know.

July, August and September - hottest months of the year, would be Fall/Autumn????

All this glaring and obvious mistakes just so that you could accomodate your beloved winter in October, November and December, ie Christmas time? Come on...

(Yes, instead of Vivaldi I blame X-Mas with its snowy, Santa imagery for this confusion.)

O.


Actually, no--when I read "Winter '41," in the context of WWII, anyway, I actually think to myself "that means roughly Dec. 1940 through February 1941). Because in the context of the war, what's really at issue is this weather--not the calendar, which is calibrated to the length of days. (As I said in my last post, there's a phase difference between the day-length calendar and the weather calendar.) In Russia, Spring begins with the Rasputitsa, and Winter begins when the snow stops the panzers, regardless of what the calendar says.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
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RE: WAW date sytem????? - 4/25/2005 9:28:42 PM   
jkbthk

 

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The sequence of seasons (Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall) in a year is scientifically correct. The same applies to a day that it starts at midnight(12:00am).

But the logical mind of humans think differently. If you ask me when a day starts, I will definitely answer that it is about the moment the sun rises. Because to humans life starts at sunrise. The same be with a year. People plan and carry out their work in spring and enjoy the havest in winter.

Of course I can get used to the date system in WaW. Why not? It is only a game. But it is still odd to my logical mind anyway.

(in reply to QBeam)
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