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Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon

 
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Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 9:33:43 AM   
jpinard

 

Posts: 500
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		I think those crying about wanting TCP/IP or LAN play haven't actually spent much time with the game. There are many other things more important than adding a feature only 5 people whiny people here "might" use.

I mean, who wants to sit there waiting for 20 minutes while someone finishes their turn options? It'd be a lot SMARTER of you people to just play a PBEM game, so you can do something else while waiting. Adding TCP/IP-LAN play is going to be like advanced PBEM (without the e-mail), and that's not what this game is about. I mean, if your going to drag 3 buddies to your house to play this via LAN, why the hell don't you just pull a boardgame out instead?

I really wish you people crying about this supposed "missing" feature woudl think about what your asking for because it really makes "almost" zero sense. Especially when those development resources could be spent on things that benefit EVERYONE, not just spent on the very few of you that would actually utilize this feature more than a few times.

The developers do NOT owe anyone TCP/IP - LAN play. I wish you people would learn how to use your e-mail for PBEM games. If you don't know how, I'd be happy to help anyone that needs it.
Post #: 1
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 11:54:59 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2550
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		Your message is bit arrogant ...

Have you ever heard about simultaneous turn based games ?
I would really appreciate if matrix could spend some time researching how to implement such a technology ...

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 2
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 12:00:11 PM   
Station


Posts: 13
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline 		So far, I haven't taken over 5 minutes to complete two turns yet (movement and production).

Still, I don't really mind whether or not they add tcp/ip lan.

I'm thinking about setting up a game with my friends to do 2 turns per day over e-mail so each of us can write up big seasonal summaries like a war diary on my site's forum.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 3
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 12:21:37 PM   
Espejo


Posts: 100
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

Y
Have you ever heard about simultaneous turn based games ?
I would really appreciate if matrix could spend some time researching how to implement such a technology ...


Toatal agreement here. Strategy gaming is although about competion and "smack talk" and playing with friends. If a good or even great strategy game can be played as a large "tabletop" worldwide even better.

PBEM is fun. Talking to your buddies while playing wiht your buddies is even more fun . simultaneous turn would be wonderful.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 4
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 2:53:11 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline
quote:

I mean, if your going to drag 3 buddies to your house to play this via LAN, why the hell don't you just pull a boardgame out instead?


I think you do not understand what tcp/ip means. BTW, how can I easily drag over a friend from France/Germany/Russia for one evening for a play on the boardgame?



_____________________________

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(in reply to Espejo)
Post #: 5
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 4:03:58 PM   
Bluestew0


Posts: 40
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

I think those crying about wanting TCP/IP or LAN play haven't actually spent much time with the game. There are many other things more important than adding a feature only 5 people whiny people here "might" use.


10 people have posted in the forums so far requesting an IP option. The majority of those only posted once expressing their interest in such an option. Only two could reasonably be considered "whiny".

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

I mean, who wants to sit there waiting for 20 minutes while someone finishes their turn options? It'd be a lot SMARTER of you people to just play a PBEM game, so you can do something else while waiting. I mean, if your going to drag 3 buddies to your house to play this via LAN, why the hell don't you just pull a boardgame out instead?


Apparently the 10 people that have posted are interested in it and so are 5 members of my regular MP group. We use voice voice software to talk so waiting a few minutes chatting while others take turns is not an issue. And it would be difficult to pull out a boardgame when most of us live in different cities and states.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

I really wish you people crying about this supposed "missing" feature woudl think about what your asking for because it really makes "almost" zero sense.


I see, anything someone else wants that is not something you want makes almost zero sense. Sorry, I hadn't been alerted to the weight and importance of your opinion. I'll be sure to snap to from now on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

The developers do NOT owe anyone TCP/IP - LAN play. I wish you people would learn how to use your e-mail for PBEM games. If you don't know how, I'd be happy to help anyone that needs it.


Agreed, the developer most certainly does not owe anyone anything else in regards to this game.

So someone who is interested in IP support doesn't know how to play PBEM? I guess I've been playing something other than PBEM the last couple days. Honestly, the contemptuous tone of your post is highly insulting. I'd suggest a mod lock this thread since your post could provoke what should be a discussion, into a flame war.


< Message edited by Bluestew0 -- 4/1/2005 4:30:25 PM >

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 6
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 4:24:43 PM   
HardRock

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 3/9/2005
Status: offline 		hmm. Do you have full supply on?

I imagine once I learn it more turns will go quicker...still..playing a large power like the WA I can see 5-30 min turns easily. The supply (and production) has to be thought out or you might as well pack it in.

Games that take 5 min a turn are no good for email (SC). They are better for live internet. By the same token 20 min to 20 day turns are better for PBEM. It's just plain common sense.

This game is perfect for PBEM and was rightfully done as such. Internet just doesn't make sense for the majority.




(in reply to Station)
Post #: 7
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 4:33:49 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		You do realize that some people play with simple supply, meaning their turns are much shorter, in which case TCP/IP will be ideal.

It would be one thing if adding TCP/IP was going to take away from the game in any way, but it will only improve it by adding a feature that many are asking for. You can still play PBEM.

As far as wasting development time better spent on something else, please tell us what you think is more important than something several people have asked for. The only thing I could think of besides bug fixes, which we will get regardless, is a scenario editor for those of us who dont like messing with game files. But I havent seen as many requests for that as I have TCP/IP.

(in reply to HardRock)
Post #: 8
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 5:41:41 PM   
jpinard

 

Posts: 500
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		AI fixes Scott...

At any rate, I guess I'm surprised so many people are playing with simple supply. I found out it will take a lot of recoding to add the TCP/IP functionality, and it just seemed witht he limited resources they have, they'd be better served conentrating on other things first before tackling something brand new.

If any of you tried to create a new campign, then you'd know what needs attention... much more than added multi-play. Some people were crying about wasting their money on this game because it didn't have TCP/IP. I just found that ludicrous, and the amout of people screaming bloody murder about it. Game is worthless without TCP/IP? Sheesh.

However, I will admit I was wrong in it not being needed period. Like was mentioned above, I guess if you're playing with easy rules and a headset for chat it could be pretty fun. So, I stand corrected in that respect.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 9
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 5:48:01 PM   
Bluestew0


Posts: 40
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

However, I will admit I was wrong in it not being needed period. Like was mentioned above, I guess if you're playing with easy rules and a headset for chat it could be pretty fun. So, I stand corrected in that respect.


A well-disposed reply.....let the gaming continue!

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 10
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 8:08:40 PM   
Regent9

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		Now we have people like jpinard crying about NOT adding TCP/IP. I don't understand why someone would be AGAINST adding TCP/IP, if you personally don't want to use it, don't. But, it is certainly very clear that alot of people would prefer TCP/IP, and I for one certainly would too. Personally, I was shocked to see that this option wasn't included in the first place. Christ, my old Axis and Allies game even supports TCP/IP play, and it works great btw. The bottom line is that players should be able to CHOOSE which type of multiplayer game they would like to use.

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 11
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 8:24:52 PM   
Warpstorm

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 10/6/2003
Status: offline 		Why would someone complain about adding something? That's an easy one. Opportunity cost. 2x3 will be 'wasting' (in the opinion of the original poster) valuable time on a feature that he doesn't want. Those weeks could be better spent on a feature he wants, bug fixes, or their next title. 2x3 does not have infinite manpower. In fact, they have an extremely small development team. Everything they decide to work on impacts everything else they could be working on instead.

< Message edited by Warpstorm -- 4/1/2005 8:25:35 PM >

(in reply to Regent9)
Post #: 12
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 9:38:19 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 34730
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

I'll encourage everyone to table this and let the good folks at 2by3 and Matrix give it some though and some time. If you trusted us to create the game in the first place, give us a bit more faith as far as improving it please. A lot comes down to actual planning and evaluations of feasibility. It may happen, it may not, but the decision will be based on hearing our customers and making a rational choice on the list of improvements that will most benefit the series moving forwards.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Warpstorm)
Post #: 13
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 10:11:29 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		I just think it's important before adding something like IP internet playability that all the bugs and flaws and loopholes of the game should be fixed first and foremost. Improving the AI top of the rung for the solo players and making sure PBEM is perfectly functional without any flaws or ability to "cheat". After that, then I have no qualms about adding something to the game like online or lan multiplayer feature.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 14
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/1/2005 11:21:07 PM   
aletoledo


Posts: 827
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

So far, I haven't taken over 5 minutes to complete two turns yet (movement and production).
wow, I haven't played a turn yet in less than 5 minutes! and yes I'm using simple supply rules. I still watch the combat animations for the more important battles though, so perhaps this is why?

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 15
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 2:11:28 AM   
Copper


Posts: 82
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		I'm playing with FOW and Advanced supply and on average it takes me 10 minutes to finish a turn, TCP/IP would be a great addition.

(in reply to aletoledo)
Post #: 16
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 3:57:28 AM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline 		I have to agree with jpinard, you don't need TCP/IP to have a good time. Perhaps you'all can put the downtime waiting for your turn to good use by starting a reading group on WW2 topics! Each week, someone chooses a book that everyone must read prior to the game session. After a few weeks, you'll forget that TCP/IP even existed :)

_____________________________


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(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 17
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 4:16:16 AM   
bssy

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		Full agreement with jpinard. This type of game is meant for single player and the base of single player customers is way larger than multi-player for this type of game. Resources would be better spent improving the ai, fixing bugs and adding additional features to improve base gameplay.

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 18
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 4:17:10 AM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline
quote:

I have to agree with jpinard, you don't need TCP/IP to have a good time.


I'm curious, but who are you to decide what we need to have a good time?

quote:

Perhaps you'all can put the downtime waiting for your turn to good use by starting a reading group on WW2 topics!


I would find chatting with my friends over an in game chat window to also be of good use.

quote:

Each week, someone chooses a book that everyone must read prior to the game session. After a few weeks, you'll forget that TCP/IP even existed




_____________________________


(in reply to eMonticello)
Post #: 19
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 4:31:33 AM   
Dalwin

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with the original poster.

It has nothing to do with technology.

This is a turn based game. In a 5 player game it could be an hour or more between your turns at times. I don't see it as making any sence to do this via TCP/IP.

PBEM and hotseat are perfectly adequate forms of multiplayer for a game like this. You can easily hang out in some chat program so that the next guy knows as soon as it is his turn. This would also allow players on the saem side to discuss strategy.

If they introduce TCP/IP play ans some peopel use it, so be it. I wouldn't want to spend that much time waiting. If it comes down to introducing this feature at the expense of some other enhancement to the game, I would not be in favor.

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 20
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 4:56:30 AM   
jpinard

 

Posts: 500
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Regent9

Now we have people like jpinard crying about NOT adding TCP/IP. I don't understand why someone would be AGAINST adding TCP/IP, if you personally don't want to use it, don't. But, it is certainly very clear that alot of people would prefer TCP/IP, and I for one certainly would too. Personally, I was shocked to see that this option wasn't included in the first place. Christ, my old Axis and Allies game even supports TCP/IP play, and it works great btw. The bottom line is that players should be able to CHOOSE which type of multiplayer game they would like to use.


Regent, maybe you should have read my follow-up post (though it was riddles with typos).

My point is: when it comes down to the game there are toher things that need to be addressed/added BEFORE TCP/IP is worked on. Things that will benefit "everyone" instead of just a few. I'm just trying to ask people to layoff the "I want TCP/IP NOW!" baloney, and the one idiot that claimed the game is worthless without TCP/IP. The game can be played at almost the same speed via PBEM... and please ease up on the developers and this issue. I could go back and edit my first post (and my other) to fix my inconsistent writing and typos, but I feel it's better for people to read "all" the posts as-is and come t an understanding.

(in reply to Regent9)
Post #: 21
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 6:36:16 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		The fact is TCP/IP SHOULD have been included to begin with, thats why it is the MOST asked for improvement so far. PBEM is just one methoda method of playing mulitplayer. Some may find it acceptable, and even the their prefered way to play. But that does not mean it is the CORRECT and therefore should be the only way to play. Thats a matter of opinion.

Some people like to take time on their turns. Fine, they should use PBEM, but many do their turns relatively quickly, and want to take their next turn relatively quickly too. Those people want TCP/IP. If you are happy with PBEM, fine, but please stop arguing against it. You have your prefered way to play, dont be selfish and try to prevent others from getting theirs.

The majority of the bugs known about are probably already fixed for the first patch, so exactly what else do you think is more important? Please show me where more people are asking for it than are asking for this.


Let me make another IMPORTANT point. I used to play axis on allies online at the MSN gamezone. There are still up to 100 people playing that game online, in the gamezone still. I can go in there and probably stir up a lot of interest about this game, but I am not going to do it, because it will be a waste of time. The very second they find out its PBEM only for multiplayer, they will lose interest. And NO, the majority of them would have no problem waitng 15-20 minutes per players turn. The average game of axis and allies online is between 6 to 8 hours. So please quit trying to tell me this game lasts too long or its turns are too long.

You just dont realize how many people dont buy because of PBEM only. Many wargames I would have bought in the past, I didnt, becasue I knew the AI wouldnt be a challenge, I dont have the patience for PBEM, and that was the only multiplayer option.
Luckily the AI in this game isnt a wimp.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/2/2005 6:40:55 AM >

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 22
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 6:44:14 AM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Mr. War;

Hopefully no offense given, but you really need to work on how you come across in written words.

Maybe some classes in online etiquette and manners would do some good

Here's a couple pointers:

1) Don't "TELL" people how to act/think
2) Always be polite (no name calling or innuendos)
3) Don't be a know it all (you know, a superiority complex?)

Follow those simple rules and you should do fine.

Great...thanks.

Later

Prof. Mike

_____________________________

"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 23
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 6:56:43 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		LOL, I know mike, I actually went back and edited it to make it more friendly.

I dont tell people how to think, in fact I am arguing against those that are trying to tell us we should be happy with PBEM.

I dont call anyone any names. I mention the word selfish, but isnt that what having your prefered method to play yet arguing against others having theirs is?

I am not a know it all. I did however say that people would want the TCP/IP option before the game was released. So I guess I did know what I was talking about this time. A rare occurence I assure you

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/2/2005 7:00:49 AM >

(in reply to ratprince)
Post #: 24
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 7:00:37 AM   
jpinard

 

Posts: 500
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		I played both the board and computer version of Axis and Allies. I can do my turns for A&A in 1/10 the time it takes me to do a turn in this game. I'm surprised people would wait that long...

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 25
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 7:06:02 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		Axis and allies is an old game. If you have played it as much as I have, you probably know what you are going to do on your first few turns by heart, no thought involved, and the rest of the game falls into a pattern. Once you have played this game a while, turns should go much faster. Remember how long it used to take to do a turn of Axis & Allies when you first started playing? Probably not too much longer than you are taking for a turn now in this game.

My real point was the total time. I know most games of axis and allies played between people of fairly equal skill will last 6 to 8 hours. This game shouldnt last that long. So the overall time involved is actually less for this game. People are willing to play an 8 hour long game of axis and allies, via TCP/IP (or gamezone) they will be willing to do the same for this game.

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 26
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 4:27:45 PM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
quote:

I have to agree with jpinard, you don't need TCP/IP to have a good time.

I'm curious, but who are you to decide what we need to have a good time?

I'm Inspector Callahan ... with the Good Time Police Department. Please note the primitive emoticon at the end of the paragraph in my original message. Based on the messages in the forum, folks choose not to be creative in finding a work-around to the simultaneous-orders issue. Why not run several games where each player is a different country? Why not start the WW2 Oprah Book Club with folks reading a WW2 book each week and discussing it while waiting for their turn?

quote:

I would find chatting with my friends over an in game chat window to also be of good use.

Which is fine if WAW was a simultaneous-orders game. Of course, there's nothing wrong with using IRC Chat, a VOIP, or IM application either. As long as you can display the chat application as a separate window or in another monitor, it would probably be far superior to what can be done if it was a feature in the game. I use dual monitors and wouldn't want to give up real estate on the game monitor for a chat feature.

quote:

quote:

Each week, someone chooses a book that everyone must read prior to the game session. After a few weeks, you'll forget that TCP/IP even existed:)



I added my primitive back in. The only value of simultaneous-orders is that it reduces the amount of time required to play a game (4 players x 10 minutes x 10 turns => 400 minutes PBEM vs 100 minutes Simul-Orders). Everything else can be accomplished via independent IRC Chat, VOIP, or IM applications as long as the game can be managed within it's own window rather than using the entire screen (it's a pain to ALT-TAB between applications).

I believe a marketing survey may be useful to determine why folks want simultaneous-orders (TCP/IP)... is it predominately for the social interaction or time-savings?

_____________________________


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 27
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 5:57:19 PM   
HardRock

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 3/9/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

You do realize that some people play with simple supply, meaning their turns are much shorter, in which case TCP/IP will be ideal.

It would be one thing if adding TCP/IP was going to take away from the game in any way, but it will only improve it by adding a feature that many are asking for. You can still play PBEM.

As far as wasting development time better spent on something else, please tell us what you think is more important than something several people have asked for. The only thing I could think of besides bug fixes, which we will get regardless, is a scenario editor for those of us who dont like messing with game files. But I havent seen as many requests for that as I have TCP/IP.


oops my bad. I just assumed everyone used supply. How silly:) I forgot this game was also targeted for axis-allies players too. You're quite right, with supply and or production off one could play rather quickly. I can see how TCP would be a blast there:)

As the WA (all options on) I spend 30-40 min a turn:)

This has to be the first game ever I can think of where different groups of people can are accomdated..ie: Hardcore wargamers and axis allies types together. Amazing feat to have pulled off:)

< Message edited by HardRock -- 4/2/2005 5:59:50 PM >

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 28
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 6:26:25 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

I think those crying about wanting TCP/IP or LAN play haven't actually spent much time with the game. There are many other things more important than adding a feature only 5 people whiny people here "might" use.




I just think its hilarious (in a rather sad sort of way). Tin Soldiers: Alexander got criticised ruthlessly (usually by people who hadn't played it, and "would never buy it without PBEM) for having TCP/IP and not PBEM, while with WaW we have the reverse.

Neither is some sort of senseless omission just to annoy people. Both games offer multiplayer support in the format best suited to the game design. Alex's phase based structure means internet play is the better choice, while internet play of a turn based game seems pointless - if you don't want delay just stay at your PC until the game is complete. If you want to chat, use a messenger or voice comms program!

< Message edited by Hertston -- 4/2/2005 6:31:52 PM >

(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 29
RE: Please don't waste development time on TCPIP/LAN addon - 4/2/2005 6:40:15 PM   
riley555a


Posts: 137
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline 		Alright, I did my share of "whining" but this has gone far enough, I'm sure Matrix gets it whether you're for or against TCP/IP. Everyone just shut up now, get off the computer and go throw a football or something.

One more thing, How exactly are we "wasting" developers time? It's not like anyone grabs them by the dick and forces them to read every stupid post. If anyone is wasting developers time it's you by making this thread about "whiny" people on the TCP/IP issue. The funny thing is this notion is hypocritical because you're whining about the whiny people. Who again is wasting developers time? A thread on suggestions for the game, being on the possible addition of TCP/IP and people giving reasons why they would like it added is way less wasteful than this thread. I wouldn't have responded so bitterly had it not been for the sheer arrogance and hypocrisy of your post.

< Message edited by riley555 -- 4/2/2005 6:56:58 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to jpinard)
Post #: 30
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