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OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 4:48:57 PM   
rtrapasso


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Anybody read the new book that just came out about the Nazis testing a crude nuclear bomb just before the end of the war?
From AP
"BERLIN (AP) - Nazi Germany tested a crude nuclear device in March 1945, killing hundreds of people in a massive explosion south of Berlin, a German researcher claims in a new book published Monday.

That the Nazis conducted nuclear experiments has been known for decades, but "Hitler's Bomb," by Berlin academic Rainer Karlsch, suggests they may have been closer to building an atomic weapon for military use than previously believed."

A few years ago, Naval History published an article about the Japanese (possibly) testing a nuclear device in what is now North Korea. I guess everyone had them!

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 4:54:03 PM   
mogami


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Hi, So an A- bomb goes off and no one gets a picture of the cloud?
If you have to test a bomb in March I think I'd test close to the front. The Russian Front..

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 5:02:35 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, So an A- bomb goes off and no one gets a picture of the cloud?
If you have to test a bomb in March I think I'd test close to the front. The Russian Front..



Dunno - maybe the book has pictures. But from the AP story, it doesn't seem like this was anything like a full yield device. I am curious if anyone has read the book, but i guess i would probably have to rely on the German members of the forum. I dunno if the book is out in English yet.

The AP story said much of the info from the book was from Russian archives.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 5:07:58 PM   
wild_Willie2


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Sorry, but the germans never even came close to completing the A-bomb, let alone TESTING it.....

truth is, the germans chased away al major atomic research scientists befor the war (most where jewish), so research never got far.....

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 5:11:29 PM   
wworld7


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Wild Willie is correct.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 5:22:58 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Sorry, but the germans never even came close to completing the A-bomb, let alone TESTING it.....

truth is, the germans chased away al major atomic research scientists befor the war (most where jewish), so research never got far.....



So i've always read. THis is why i am curious if anyone has read this new book - and if they have read it, what evidence is presented.

I am willing to give it consideration, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Lots of things that we believed a few decades ago have turned out to be overturned in the light of new evidence. I.e. - 20 years ago, i would not have believed the Greeks of 2000 years or so ago could have invented a computer (of sorts - analog.) But a few years ago, someone dredged one up (partly embedded in coral) - a finely machined device with gears designed to do astronomical computations. Now well documented. If someone could make a 2 millenium leap in technology, i don't consider it impossible for someone else to make a leap of say, 5 years.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 5:52:32 PM   
RUPD3658


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I think that there would have to be residual radiation at the scene. Show me that and I will begin to accept the possibility.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 5:59:04 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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Does the term "BS" ring any bells. It seems if you want to sell popular history today, you have to make absolutely assinine claims. So we have books claiming the Holocaust didn't happen, the Japanese were building jet super-weapons, and now that the Nazi's had a bomb. Seems the same morons who buy into every alien abduction story and conspiricy theory will buy this crap too. Take the story for what it is worth...., nothing.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 5:59:05 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


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sorry rtrapasso, this is rubbish.
Only the USA were able to do this in these ages. Most ppl overlook the simple fact that at this time ( 40's ) an atomic weapon had a terrible cost and used terrific resources, energy etc.
there were simply not the money, time and the energy to do this. ( and YES, I am happy with that )

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 6:40:59 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I think that there would have to be residual radiation at the scene. Show me that and I will begin to accept the possibility.



The AP article said that tests showed residual isotopes in the soil. The AP article said the guy who wrote the book (Karlsch) said "What Nazi Germany lacked was enough fissile material - such as enriched uranium - to make a full-size, functioning nuclear bomb, he said." So, i am not sure what he claims to be a "bomb". It sounds more like a subcritical mass problem (maybe an accident, which have occurred elsewhere with rather devastating results to people in the immediate area).

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 3/14/2005 1:37:59 PM >


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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 6:44:41 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Does the term "BS" ring any bells. It seems if you want to sell popular history today, you have to make absolutely assinine claims. So we have books claiming the Holocaust didn't happen, the Japanese were building jet super-weapons, and now that the Nazi's had a bomb. Seems the same morons who buy into every alien abduction story and conspiricy theory will buy this crap too. Take the story for what it is worth...., nothing.



Again, i am willing to consider something if evidence is presented. Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, to dismiss something without even to bother to consider the evidence is, well, not my cup of tea. Yes, i have looked at other extraordinary claims such as you have listed. And, no, i do not believe them. However, i am willing to take a look at them.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:08:54 PM   
rtrapasso


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Correction - the AP article calls the (alledged) explosion from "a crude nuclear device", not a bomb, and apparently the author refers to it as that also, and not specifically as a nuclear bomb. The name of the book, is, however, "Hitler's Bomb". This might be referring to what he was working on, rather than this particular event.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:19:37 PM   
wild_Willie2


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Ok, it theoretically COULD have happened that a stray allied bomb, COULD have hit a stash of RADIO ACTIVE material, SCATTERING it trough the immediate area. Anything more than that is (even more) fiction…..

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:25:40 PM   
tsimmonds


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You don't need enriched uranium to construct a working pile (as was done by Enrico Fermi on the squash court at the U of Chicago in December 1942), so it is also possible that this was a pile meltdown.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:28:20 PM   
Burzmali

 

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The NAZI's nuclear program started out as a threat, but they lacked the resources the US had at the time to complete the development cycle. For example, the Germans had one team working on each stage in the development of the bomb. If the team choose the "right" development path, the German project advanced, otherwise they got stuck in a rut. The US, on the other hand, simply brought more people on board and tried each of the alternative development paths, guarnteeing they would find the fastest way to bring the bomb online. Combine this with the problems of developing anything while getting bombed on a regular basis and that's why the German nuclear program went nowhere fast.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:31:01 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Ok, it theoretically COULD have happened that a stray allied bomb, COULD have hit a stash of RADIO ACTIVE material, SCATTERING it trough the immediate area. Anything more than that is (even more) fiction…..



Or, since the facility (Ohrdruf military testing area) was latter a Russian base, maybe the Russian's were a bit careless with their "special weapons". However, i don't know if the Russian's stored anything like that there.

The author says he can not at this time prove a "device" was set off, although he has supportive evidence, and hopes that this book will provoke more research into the subject.

If something nasty was set off in the area, it should show up in the bones of people who lived in and around there at the time, and should be easy enough to prove or disprove if one could examine said bones.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:35:38 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Burzmali

The NAZI's nuclear program started out as a threat, but they lacked the resources the US had at the time to complete the development cycle. For example, the Germans had one team working on each stage in the development of the bomb. If the team choose the "right" development path, the German project advanced, otherwise they got stuck in a rut. The US, on the other hand, simply brought more people on board and tried each of the alternative development paths, guarnteeing they would find the fastest way to bring the bomb online. Combine this with the problems of developing anything while getting bombed on a regular basis and that's why the German nuclear program went nowhere fast.


I have read that it was probably a good thing for German nuclear scientists that the program didn't work as advertised. They tried to get a chain reaction going a la Univ. of Chicago reactor - and it failed. Most of the German nuclear scientists were present at the failure. What the German's didn't realize was the biologic effects of the neutron radiation produced in chain reaction - and they had no shielding around the reactor! If they had gotten it going, all the scientists (and everyone else around) would probably have received fatal doses of radiation.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:39:36 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

You don't need enriched uranium to construct a working pile (as was done by Enrico Fermi on the squash court at the U of Chicago in December 1942), so it is also possible that this was a pile meltdown.


This sounds like an interesting idea. In a water-moderated reactor, enough heat can split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and when they recombine, this could give a rather nasty (and large) explosion. IIRC, it was uncontrolled hydrogen release at Chernobyl that caused an explosion (of course, the reactor was out of control producing huge amounts of heat and energy).

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 7:46:18 PM   
tsimmonds


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If such a pile became hot enough (remember, Fermi's pile had no cooling system! That reaction was modulated by graphite rods inserted and withdrawn by manual control), it is easy to imagine that it could escape control, melt down, burn its way through whatever floor, and quickly work its way down to something that would flash into steam. That would be explosive in effect.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 3/14/2005 12:54:22 PM >


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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 8:00:33 PM   
VicKevlar

 

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Alrighty......once again, these types of threads (military history/speculation and wargaming topics) belong in the General Forum....not in game related ones. Moving.....

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 8:08:57 PM   
rtrapasso


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Well, i had a nice post for this about other types of nuclear accidents i have read about where explosions took place (not on the scale of a nuclear bomb, but quite fatal to those around it). However, it got lost when the post was moved. I don't have time to reconstruct it right now.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 3/14/2005 3:06:37 PM >


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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 9:04:26 PM   
max_h

 

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the bomb´s been supposed to be a "dirty bomb", not a "real" a-bomb.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 9:51:05 PM   
elcidce

 

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From the Authors description the residents around the area saw a flash, and suffered from nose bleeds and nausea for days afterward. There were radioactive materials found in the soils nearby. It sounds compelling and worthy of more research. I dont think we have even scratched the surface in learning what the Nazis had been doing in secret. The victors usually write the history books. We probably will never know the truth about all of their plans.

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 11:48:22 PM   
Warfare1


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There may be some discrepancies between what a reporter for AP calls a "nuclear bomb" and what the author of that book was actually referring to.

To shed some light on the subject:

A little known incident occurred in the closing days of WWII: a German U-boat (U-234) set a course for Japan. It's cargo? The German U-boat carried armor piercing antiaircraft shells; the plans for two Me-262 jet fighters; and 10 containers, marked "Japanese Army", that contained 560 kg of uranium oxide.

Since this story was written, a substantial amount of new information has become available. Much of this can be found in the fascinating video, "U-234 - Hitler's Last U-boat." It seems possible, but by no means certain, that the captured uranium was sent to Oak Ridge and processed to help make the fuel for the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

More info here:

http://www.orau.org/ptp/articlesstories/u234.htm

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 11:51:19 PM   
Warfare1


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Here is a copy of the actual

REPORT ON INTERROGATION OF THE CREW OF U-234 WHICH SURRENDERED TO THE USS SUTTON ON 14 MAY, 1945:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-234INT.htm

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 3/14/2005 9:49:05 PM >

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/14/2005 11:58:07 PM   
Warfare1


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The Video: "U-234: Hitler's Last U-boat":

http://www.ihffilm.com/840.html

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/15/2005 2:33:11 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elcidce

From the Authors description the residents around the area saw a flash, and suffered from nose bleeds and nausea for days afterward. There were radioactive materials found in the soils nearby. It sounds compelling and worthy of more research. I dont think we have even scratched the surface in learning what the Nazis had been doing in secret. The victors usually write the history books. We probably will never know the truth about all of their plans.


I think the opposite. We'll learn more about existing issues, but I'd be surprised if there was much left to discover for new. I've seen NAZIs blamed for UFOs, I've seen allegations of NAZIs in the antartic building bases and fighting with American Task Forces in the late forties, and allegations of all sorts, but they are simply that, allegations.

The Germans didn't have the resources to make a bomb. Had they gotten close, post war interrogations would have found out. Such a program would have required huge resources, lots of personnel and a good deal of paperwork. How much money did the Americans throw at Manhattan? That we found nothing is very telling. By mid 44, the Germans didn't have the resources to train their pilots to fly their aircraft for more than a few hours before throwing them into combat.
I think it unrealistic they would have had the resources to build a bomb.

Respect and regards,
IronDuke

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/15/2005 3:21:39 AM   
diesel7013


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quote:

Does the term "BS" ring any bells. It seems if you want to sell popular history today, you have to make absolutely assinine claims. So we have books claiming the Holocaust didn't happen, the Japanese were building jet super-weapons, and now that the Nazi's had a bomb. Seems the same morons who buy into every alien abduction story and conspiricy theory will buy this crap too. Take the story for what it is worth...., nothing.


Man, do I ever agree with Mike, I'm so tired of every new history book out there trying to "Tell us the truth" about history... Lincoln was gay, the folks at the Alamo were only trying to protect stolen gold, Lee was a terrible general, the whole Revolutionary War was a bunch of rich guys trying to get richer off the backs of slaves and the poor, and what ever bull s&(* that some revisionist liberal can think up to minimize the efforts and results of those that came before us...

It sure is nice to sit back and look back at history and make sweeping judgements about what the men and women of yesterday did, without the historical context of what they were living through...

Bottom line, all great men and women have flaws, what makes them great is their ability to impact the world in a overall positve manner despite whatever obstacles that have to overcome...
Patton was a great general, warts and all, so was Eisenhower, Rommel, and all the rest - the Fathers of our Country ( US ) were great men, no matter what the hangups...
And Lincoln was not gay...
( Have you ever seen such an hideously ugly guy who was gay??? )

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/15/2005 3:55:25 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:


Man, do I ever agree with Mike, I'm so tired of every new history book out there trying to "Tell us the truth" about history... Lincoln was gay, the folks at the Alamo were only trying to protect stolen gold, Lee was a terrible general, the whole Revolutionary War was a bunch of rich guys trying to get richer off the backs of slaves and the poor, and what ever bull s&(* that some revisionist liberal can think up to minimize the efforts and results of those that came before us...

It sure is nice to sit back and look back at history and make sweeping judgements about what the men and women of yesterday did, without the historical context of what they were living through...

Bottom line, all great men and women have flaws, what makes them great is their ability to impact the world in a overall positve manner despite whatever obstacles that have to overcome...
Patton was a great general, warts and all, so was Eisenhower, Rommel, and all the rest - the Fathers of our Country ( US ) were great men, no matter what the hangups...
And Lincoln was not gay...
( Have you ever seen such an hideously ugly guy who was gay??? )


First bold, Lee wasn't terrible, but he wasn't the all singing, all dancing Super General he has been protrayed as. Some revisionism is a healthy thing.

re the second bold, I wholeheartedly disagree, but we don't want to go there...

Regards,
IronDuke

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RE: OT: Nazi Nuclear Bomb - 3/15/2005 4:03:27 AM   
diesel7013


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Well, you are a Brit an' all...


Bet you loved Monty too!!

And remember, there are a lot of great men, never said I thought Patton was the greatest general of all time... we all know that was McClellan...

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