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HOI2 or GGWaW - 2/28/2005 7:59:09 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I have HOI2 ordered and it was meant to be shipped on Friday of last week...but it's been delayed (release delayed) until this Friday...

Give me GGWaW as Digital Download before Friday and you could have my money before HOI2 as I am able to cancel my order upto shipment....so what say you...?

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 2/28/2005 10:34:16 PM   
TheHellPatrol


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That sounds reasonable to me.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 2/28/2005 10:40:35 PM   
Barthheart


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Get'em both. You can play HOI2 while you wait for your GGWAW e-mail game to return to you.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/1/2005 7:27:44 PM   
ravinhood


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quote:

Give me GGWaW as Digital Download before Friday and you could have my money before HOI2


Lol what a waste of good money. ;)

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/1/2005 8:53:38 PM   
max_h

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

Give me GGWaW as Digital Download before Friday


Lol what a waste of good money. ;)


tsk! why do you diss GGWAW even before its release?

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/1/2005 8:57:30 PM   
TheHellPatrol


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.I think he's referring to H(hours)O(of)I(irritation)2(2 late)

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/1/2005 11:30:15 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I've not read any bad info on it...apart from people that strongly don't want to like it for some reason.

To be frank if you haven't played it, you shouldn't try to influence people. On the other hand, if you have played it, I'd be interedted to hear your comments on it...not simply the comment you made.

If it was a joke, I apologise...but frankly I get a little upset with people dissing a game "...just because..." either

1. because they have something against the developer (many people are like that with EA Sports or Codemasters games, for example)

or

2.because they played a previous incarnation of the title and hated it...which then, quite often, leads to point 1.

If you have played it, though, I be interested in some objectivity to prevent me buying something which doesn't hit the mark....then again, I've seen people rave about UV and WitP and, whilst I don't want to put those games down, I fail to see the appeal "to the same degree" as other people...so it's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other...

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 12:01:47 AM   
Barthheart


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I'll say it again, get'em both.

I have HOI2 and it's great for what it is, a very detailed WWII sand box. You can do all kinds of things in it both historic and not.

In play testing GGWAW, I have enjoyed the game very much as well but it's completely different from HOI2. GGWAW lets you take command in what was actually the WWII we all read about. Very detailed strategy is needed to win, espesially when you play with the advanced supply rules. This is not A & A. Not even close to the same style of play or thinking involved.

Most people won't like both, but I like all types of WWII games.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 12:26:32 AM   
Hanal

 

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I play HOI2 but I still am not a big fan of the continuous time game play as I pause the game more often than I like just to keep a handle on what's going on...I admit to being a turn based kinda guy, so while I play HOI2, I enjoy WaW much more....

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 12:51:30 AM   
TheHellPatrol


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I meant no disrespect towards HOI2, but after all troubles with HOI i can't get myself into it. IMO WW2 , or any grand strategy frankly, should be turn-based. I have had Crusader Kings since it's release in Europe, and i'm still enjoying it, but i'm also waiting for the next patch. Life is too short and with WAW coming i see no need to play a re-make with all the "baggage" associated with it. Paradox is a fantastic developer but i don't think they will be lonely at the top, if you catch my drift, as they're going to have some company.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 2:21:54 AM   
Marc von Martial


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Buy both of them. I enjoyed HOI, yeah even with the bugs and considering the fact that I don´t even had time to finish HOI. I won't have time to finish HIO2 too, but I think I´ll still enjoy it.

Of course GGWAW is better, even if you cant`t compare them

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 3/2/2005 7:23:54 AM >


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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 2:36:14 AM   
Awac835


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I must have a say in this now that i got my net up and running again.

I got HOI2, and i kind of like some parts of it, and others i don't. I don't like the fact that its not turned based. Also the combat rules are a bit odd with leaders and stuff. It says its grand strategy but yet you have to move around with single divisions. I would call it grand stategy if you could build single divisions and then assign them to korps or armies. Its almost like it tries to be a RTS when it gets down to the combat part of the game.

Had HOI2 had a real command structure it would have been much better.
Another thing i don't like is that it often turn out some very odd results, when we get to historical events. USA and Japan as allies against england and germany. all sorts of different VERY ahistorical event's and outcomes.

What i do like about the game is how you have to manage supply and oil and watch your supply chain. Its such a blast knowing that the only reason the invasion is going so well is becouse you as the US is shipping supplies to europe, and you then have to defend the sealanes.
But this also seems to be included in WAW.

Also it seems that WAW will have locked allies. So that soviets cant ally with germany and so on. This will give you are more WW2 feel becouse that was what WW2 were. In HOI2 you don't play WW2 if the AI gets funny on you, then you just play a world war set in 1936-1947, sure its a WW2 just not "the WW2" that we know and like. And i don't mean like as in, like the fact that 50 million people lost there lives

anyway WAW is a sure buy for me. just hope i don't get dissapointed, since i still don't really have a feelling what this game is all about or how it works. But if it is remotly like BiN just on a bigger scale then ill be more then happy.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 2:37:37 AM   
paullus99


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Trust me, you will not be disappointed - this is the strategic WWII game we've all been waiting for!

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 3:15:34 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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I think Paradox makes good games based on history but overall they are not historical. The continous pause wears me out. Some people love it, some don't-i don't.

But Team Matrix is more in toon with the overall type of historical wargaming i am use too and want. I will never buy another Paradox game - ever. But i understand why those who like their games, will.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/2/2005 4:13:02 PM   
steveh11Matrix


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You can make your own mind up:
http://www.heartsofiron2.com/ and download the demo (from the downloads area, natch.)

Steve.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 12:17:31 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

I will never buy another Paradox game - ever.


Ahhhh another "Brother of the Crusade". ;)

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 12:21:07 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Buy both of them. I enjoyed HOI, yeah even with the bugs and considering the fact that I don´t even had time to finish HOI. I won't have time to finish HIO2 too, but I think I´ll still enjoy it.

Of course GGWAW is better, even if you cant`t compare them


Lol Marc you remind me of Patton in the movie when he wouldn't drink with the Russian, but, then drank to both being a son of a biatch! lol

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 9:46:54 AM   
Banquet

 

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I've never quite understood why so many people dislike the real time nature of HoI. After all, you can pause anytime and, at it's slowest setting, 1 hour takes about 5 seconds giving you plenty of time to think things through.

I think HoI2 is a wonderful game. The poster describing it as a sandbox is spot on. With HoI1, after the modders had time to craft it, you could play it quite historically if you wanted. But you can also do some very ahistorical things if that's what you want to do.

I'm a big fan of WiTP and that keeps you quite close to the historical path in terms of what units you get, etc. This is great in a lot of ways but sometimes it's nice to play a different way and try things that were never done in history.

I can see why some total historian grogs might look down on HoI but at the end of the day what other game gives you the entire war, with time running hourly down to single divisions and individual ships? With any country playable?

When I first heard about CGWaW I pretty much wrote it off as too simple compared to HoI. Three monthly turns? I gave that up with Third Reich!! However, having read about it, I'll probably buy it. The AI sounds great and a game that can be played in one session will be refreshing after many a bleary eyed night with WiTP.

Paradox and Matrix are my two favourite game companies. Both of them deserve much success and there's certainly plenty of room for both.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 2:24:25 PM   
CatLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

Paradox and Matrix are my two favourite game companies. Both of them deserve much success and there's certainly plenty of room for both.
Hear hear !

Cat

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 3:58:53 PM   
steveh11Matrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

Paradox and Matrix are my two favourite game companies. Both of them deserve much success and there's certainly plenty of room for both.
Hear hear !

Cat
No argument!

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 6:43:31 PM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

I've never quite understood why so many people dislike the real time nature of HoI. After all, you can pause anytime and, at it's slowest setting, 1 hour takes about 5 seconds giving you plenty of time to think things through.


Pause is not the same as doing your turn when you feel like it and emailing it off. It's not so much a like vs a dislike, it's a time commitment that requires all players to be available at the same time.

Picture playing a game of HoI 2 where you are in England (GMT+0), and you are playing someone in Boston (GMT-5), LA (GMT-8) and Oz (GMT+10) ... as you can imagine, the real time nature becomes rather difficult at that point in time.

It also adds the requirement for good networking for all parties involved.

From the save size (half a meg), GGWaW is well within the means of people even with very slow network connections and poor email services.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 6:48:43 PM   
Becket


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I've never quite understood why so many people dislike the real time nature of HoI. After all, you can pause anytime and, at it's slowest setting, 1 hour takes about 5 seconds giving you plenty of time to think things through.


Pause is not the same as doing your turn when you feel like it and emailing it off. It's not so much a like vs a dislike, it's a time commitment that requires all players to be available at the same time.

Picture playing a game of HoI 2 where you are in England (GMT+0), and you are playing someone in Boston (GMT-5), LA (GMT-8) and Oz (GMT+10) ... as you can imagine, the real time nature becomes rather difficult at that point in time.

It also adds the requirement for good networking for all parties involved.

From the save size (half a meg), GGWaW is well within the means of people even with very slow network connections and poor email services.


Now if only a fast net connection could help me spot when I leave key territories wide-open.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 7:00:36 PM   
mavraam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I've never quite understood why so many people dislike the real time nature of HoI. After all, you can pause anytime and, at it's slowest setting, 1 hour takes about 5 seconds giving you plenty of time to think things through.


Pause is not the same as doing your turn when you feel like it and emailing it off. It's not so much a like vs a dislike, it's a time commitment that requires all players to be available at the same time.

Picture playing a game of HoI 2 where you are in England (GMT+0), and you are playing someone in Boston (GMT-5), LA (GMT-8) and Oz (GMT+10) ... as you can imagine, the real time nature becomes rather difficult at that point in time.

It also adds the requirement for good networking for all parties involved.

From the save size (half a meg), GGWaW is well within the means of people even with very slow network connections and poor email services.



I agree. My issue with HOI2 is that the real time nature does not lend itself to MP for the reasons you cited. Couple that with an extremely weak AI and you are left with a very complex and sophisticated WWII simulation with no good oponent. Its like a great car with no gas.

I like the game but once you get the game mechanics down, its easy to crush the AI. As an example, when playing Germany, you often can destroy the entire fleet of the UK. But when playing the UK, you can completely wipe out the German, Italian and a big chunk of the Jap navy and be left along with the US with complete control of the ocean.

If you think about the number of decisions PER SECOND that the AI in HOI2 has to make for the 150 countries that you aren't playing, its amazing it can put up any kind of fight at all! And it has to do all this while simultaneously resolving battles, moving units, tracking supply, etc. Its really an incredible achievement in programming.

A turn based game like GGWAW on the other hand makes it much more plausible that a competent AI can be made. Add to that the fact that you can actually do PBEM what you end up with is a simpler game but with challenging oponents.

HOI2 is fun to play around with but I quickly got tired of it.

GGWAW sounds like the type of game you will play for a long, long time discovering more and more subtle levels to the strategy. Kind of like chess.

< Message edited by mavraam -- 3/3/2005 5:01:13 PM >


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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 7:27:21 PM   
Banquet

 

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Mr.Frag.. I see your point. For MP I can see the advantage. I don't play MP/PBEM so that didn't occur to me.

mavraam.. I agree and disagree. I think, at it's heart, the HOI AI is quite good. It just needs to be 'taught' better through the AI files. I think it's tactically quite good, but not so great strategically.

It is easy to beat the AI if you play a certain way. I've read many a post on the Paradox forums about 20-30 stacks of uboats killing the RN. This, I think, is because the AI doesn't create totally unrealistic stacks of naval units. If the player does it all goes to pot.

If the player sticks to historically realistic TF's I doubt they could get the same results. There are players who are quite happy building nothing but CV's and DD's. Great for them, but I'm not interested in playing this way and as a result I may have a better challenge against the AI. Actually I think WitP suffers from this to an extent as well, with huge CV 'deathstar' TF's seemly the norm.

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 7:36:02 PM   
ravinhood


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quote:

It is easy to beat the AI if you play a certain way.


It's easy to beat any AI if you play a certain way, except X-Coms AI, lol, there just is no certain way to play against that monster.

But, at any rate that is why PBEM is sooooooo important, because of "time frames" you can get a whole lot more opponents than you can in games like Paradox makes. Real time games require real time players and that just reduces the population of gamers overall instead of increasing them like PBEM games do.

I look forward to many PBEM games of GGWAW, I think some tournaments should be setup from the start and Matrixgames gives away some T-Shirts and/or Mugs! ;) No beta testers allowed in the first tournament though. And it should start within a few days of release so everyone will be new to the game. (excluding beta testers of course).

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 7:41:20 PM   
Barthheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

...No beta testers allowed in the first tournament though...


Chicken!

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 7:54:12 PM   
Becket


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
No beta testers allowed in the first tournament though.


Wimp.



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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 8:12:26 PM   
IDrinkBeer

 

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quote:

No beta testers allowed in the first tournament though.



GirlyMan!!

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 8:38:13 PM   
paullus99


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Where's your spine????

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RE: HOI2 or GGWaW - 3/3/2005 9:31:30 PM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

Mr.Frag.. I see your point. For MP I can see the advantage. I don't play MP/PBEM so that didn't occur to me.


I guess one of the other advantages is the ability to play multiple games at the same time. No matter how good you are, you'll not be seeing that type of support in a real time game.

Nothing inherently wrong with live type games, they just require a different level of time and technology commitment. HTTR is a fantasic example of a real time game.

With GGWaW it sounds like you will be playing multiple games all at the same time against multiple teams of people. Certainly fills up them hours on the clock and by looking for folks outside your time zones, you can be sleeping while they do their orders.

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