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Mods and Sods - 10/29/2004 9:44:45 AM   
Forward_March

 

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...forget the sods bit...that was just to make the thread sound more interesting through poetic license.

Anyway...I appreciate what you guys try to do...to make the game more playable, more fun, more interesting, and most of all...more even.

Arbitrarily adding this or that to the game can change the outcomes...but is it fair to arbitrarily add or subtract from a game that I'm pretty sure was pretty thoroughly thought out? Possum added skill, numbers, and production to the game and made it unplayable for the German side. Will a population explosion and tons of artillery do the same with F_L's mods? I guess I'll know once I find a human opponent for them.

Other mods are tweaking aircraft and tanks, and giving the weaker side much more of everything in an effort to change the usual outcome...that the Soviet player can only make it past 42' by the Germans holding back and copious use of house rules.

Although I have always loved this game, it has one fatal flaw. It's not too few artillery factors for the Russians. It's not too few bodies for the Ivans. Nor, is it too few tanks, or too many crappy aircraft.

It's movement. True, tanks could motor over the steppe at good clip. But could they do so through thick forest? Could they do it through pripet, and the marshes of the north? now, they could, if those areas had some decent roads. Did they? I don't know much about the area north and east of Novgorod to tell you the truth. Were there any secondary roads? There must have been. But this is the area that costs the Soviets the game in game after game. It's just easy to blast through Demjansk, and then pick some place nor'east of there to sever the rail line.

It's impossible for the Reds to be in every hex the German player might choose. As the German player, I've even changed direction for three consecutive turns just to sever that rail line through Tihkvin.

What the game needs is different movement costs for each type of terrain (like every other wargame in the world has had), a road network that also carries supply, but at a lower rate, and greater supply impairment for hexes that have no decent roads.

Now all we need is somebody to build it... I would, if I had the skill and knowledge...but my favorite tool when something goes wrong is a 3lb sledge.
Post #: 1
RE: Mods and Sods - 10/29/2004 2:13:06 PM   
crusher

 

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your right in Guderian's book panzer leader he states that roads marked as good on there maps were nothing but muddy trails that made movement by vechile's almost impossible and made respply a nightmare. places were the rail heads ended supply by tracked units was the only way supplies got to the front.

(in reply to Forward_March)
Post #: 2
RE: Mods and Sods - 10/30/2004 2:24:07 PM   
loveman2

 

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What this game really needs is mr. Grisby to reinvent it in a grand scale and produce a game worthy of his genius!

(in reply to crusher)
Post #: 3
RE: Mods and Sods - 10/30/2004 3:45:06 PM   
JagdFlanker


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i'm confident that in the next 5 years mr. grigsby will be starting the eastern front game he currently has on the back-burner. in a way, it's preferable that he does it after war in the pacific so he can apply the lessons from that great looking game.

i totally agree with you, mr. march! when i play with the map i always get the overwhelming desire to make rail connections where they 'shouldn't be', just because even if there is not supposed to be rail there both sides always found a way to keep their troops in supply at all costs. now that you mention it, it is strange that there are no movement penalties for 'rough' terrain! and during rain, why should any unit move more than 1 hex, let alone 5 hexes for armoured corps?

but as far as improving WiR 3.3, (WiR 3.4) i only have 3 major suggestions:

all non cut-off hexes should have at least 3 supply to simulate the road network - i think that there must be a way to edit the code to be able to do this with a minimum of effort. there's gotta be a value in the code somewhere that states (in very basic terms) that 'if a hex is more than 6 hexes from any rail line, then supply is zero'. well, change it to three!! this would make rail lines important, but not crucial.

either change the 'shatter' routine to 'retreat', or just plain get rid of the 'extra shatter probibility' during summer '41 for the sovs and blizzard '41/'42 for the germans - the shatter thing is just WAY too unforgiving - new players should not have to be subjected to the horrors of their first few games learning the hard way!! it's just silly! low soviet troop experience should do the same basic job as shattering in summer '41.

get rid of random entrenchment - in version 3 and up of WiR, entrenchment has been greatly reduced in effectiveness compared to the original which could explain why leningrad now always falls in 1941. now this makes for a more fluid game, which is more exciting, so i can't argue with that change. but if that isn't 'bad enough', random entrenchment makes a decent entrenchment very difficult. it seems to me 3 entrenchment is almost the same as no entrenchment after a couple airstrikes. i can't see why a city entreanched for 9 turns (over 2 months!) shouldn't get the 9 entrenchment automatically. it's not like another unit can 'reclaim' the entrenchment later - once a unit moves it's entreanchment is lost forever!

i'm sure there are other details that should/could be ironed out, but to me these are 3 that i'm sure can be done with the current code. unfortunatly i'm not going to get my hopes up that a WiR 3.4 will ever see light!

(in reply to loveman2)
Post #: 4
RE: Mods and Sods - 10/31/2004 6:24:05 AM   
Forward_March

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

all non cut-off hexes should have at least 3 supply to simulate the road network - i think that there must be a way to edit the code to be able to do this with a minimum of effort. there's gotta be a value in the code somewhere that states (in very basic terms) that 'if a hex is more than 6 hexes from any rail line, then supply is zero'. well, change it to three!! this would make rail lines important, but not crucial.

either change the 'shatter' routine to 'retreat', or just plain get rid of the 'extra shatter probibility' during summer '41 for the sovs and blizzard '41/'42 for the germans - the shatter thing is just WAY too unforgiving - new players should not have to be subjected to the horrors of their first few games learning the hard way!! it's just silly! low soviet troop experience should do the same basic job as shattering in summer '41.

get rid of random entrenchment - in version 3 and up of WiR, entrenchment has been greatly reduced in effectiveness compared to the original which could explain why leningrad now always falls in 1941. now this makes for a more fluid game, which is more exciting, so i can't argue with that change. but if that isn't 'bad enough', random entrenchment makes a decent entrenchment very difficult. it seems to me 3 entrenchment is almost the same as no entrenchment after a couple airstrikes. i can't see why a city entreanched for 9 turns (over 2 months!) shouldn't get the 9 entrenchment automatically. it's not like another unit can 'reclaim' the entrenchment later - once a unit moves it's entreanchment is lost forever!



I like your idea of non cut-off hexes having some value...but with the terrible road network of Russia, I think a supply of 2 for open hexes, 1 for mountains, and zero for swamps would be better. I think too that larger cities (those worth VP's) should have an intrinsic value that starts at 5 and drops 1 per month. It's not like Leningrad or Moscow didn't have storage warehouses, fuel dumps, and running water.

Dumping the shatter would be all right if it were changed to rout, or something. There should be some penalty...like a huge loss of readiness...say drop it to 5%, and a huge loss of materiel.

For the blizzard season, I'm not certain what I'd do for the Germans. Shatter seems too harsh. Historically, the German divisions before Moscow were in terrible shape, having lost many men in much fighting, and covering overly-large areas. For instance, I remember reading of a German regiment (not a division) covering a front of 20 miles in hedgehog positions...which can't be simulated in this game.

Random entrenchment has always been a botherto me as well. But I don't think and artillery battery alone in a 20-mile hex should be able to reach even 1. It should be done according the the number of troops in the hex. Again, VP cities would have an intrinsic value.

I hope too that Herr Grigsby (I wonder if he reads any of our whines) will develop another Eastern front game...or better yet, one that covers all of Europe and some of North Africa....Wouldn't it be sweet to drive Monty over the Nile and into Jerusalem!
...If he is reading, I hope too that there'll be some way to do research on new planes without having to shut down your factories. Research after all, is done in a drawing room...not on the assembly line.

(in reply to JagdFlanker)
Post #: 5
RE: Mods and Sods - 10/31/2004 8:58:03 AM   
crusher

 

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From: philippines
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as for the blizzard winter it was really only army group center that suffered . army group north had fixed positions and got by in good shape . army group south managed to get by ok because the russians used the major part of there new and refitted units to try and destroy army group center which was over extended and had terrible supply lines. so the level of supply for a hex should drop forcing the germans to retreat to regain supply every blizzard turn. there should be a few less blizzard turns also. units of army group center retreated even with hitlers stand and die orders.

(in reply to Forward_March)
Post #: 6
RE: Mods and Sods - 11/3/2004 4:49:44 PM   
m39 white death

 

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I think the game is pretty well play balanced as is. I think the biggest issues have to do with ethical gameplay. Some guys play straight up and fair, and some don't...bottom line. The biggest indicator to me is whether a guy's attacks always are models of perfection, which is simply not possible. If both players are competent and understand the game, no more than 1/2 of the Axis players attacks should be successful on any given turn after the end of blitzkrieg supply. There are a host of things that can go wrong when attacking; underestimating defensive strength and entrenchment level, failure of the units to coordinate an attack; failure of follow up units to plot properly so as to guard supply heads in breakthroughs; appearance of Soviet airpower; timely reinforcement of attacked units by Russian reserve divisions sent by front commanders; multiple rounds of combat; and the list goes on. I rarely take Moscow in '41 as the Axis player against a skilled opponent, and I can hold Moscow about 1/2 the time against a skilled Axis player, which is as it should be.

If I were to change anything, it would be to 1. make it impossible to replay turns; once you resolve combat, that's it; and 2. fix the save/reopen bug so as to prevent extra production. The best way to implement 1 would be for the turn to be automatically saved AND emailed to the opponent as part of the combat resolution phase, and the player would not be able to reevaluate the outcome. As far as issue 2, this can be fixed by someone pretty easily with some programming background and time. Neither of these things are insurmountable, and if implemented would make this really excellent game far more fun and balanced imho.

(in reply to crusher)
Post #: 7
RE: Mods and Sods - 11/4/2004 10:09:47 PM   
Forward_March

 

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I think the game is just past too much tinkering...hardcodes and whatnot. It needs replacement

(in reply to m39 white death)
Post #: 8
RE: Mods and Sods - 11/9/2004 6:20:56 PM   
Josans


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From: Barcelona (Spain)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Forward_March

I think the game is just past too much tinkering...hardcodes and whatnot. It needs replacement


Good point your issue about movement. I agree with you but its coded and nothing will be changed.Adding more house rules could help. Yes I know still more house rules

(in reply to Forward_March)
Post #: 9
RE: Mods and Sods - 11/10/2004 3:34:39 AM   
JagdFlanker


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oops - i looked in the manual recently found that random entrenchment was originally programmed into the game! but still, if entrenchment was later reduced in effectivness the chances of being able to entrench should perhaps have been adjusted to be higher...

(in reply to Forward_March)
Post #: 10
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