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Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships!

 
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Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 1:32:10 AM   
fbastos


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Folks,

Finally the end of my quest with AR ships. Mr. Frag took pity on my plight, and provided some directions on how to better see their effects.

My conclusions are:

(a) Forget about trying to use ARs to help small ships - you better rely on luck than ARs for small ships
(b) Forget about trying to use ARs on small ports - I can't measure a benefit there
(c) Use ARs on big ports repairing big ships - you can expect about +1% or +2% repair per ship per month
(d) I advise to use ARs with ports with up to 4 ships

Be advised that item (d) is pretty much my conjecture. If you get like 4 big ships and 20 small ships, I'm not sure that ARs are smart enough to try to help only the 4 biggest ships; if they choose at random, and try to help a small ship, that will have negligible effect.

As you can see, ARs have a very small effect, and it is quite easy to try to use them on a way that produces no effects at all. In the end, it kinda make sense what the manual says:

"A repair ship may help up to 4 ships (bonus equal to increasing port size by 1)"

Indeed they help 4 ships, and the bonus on increasing port size by 1 would be, in the case of destroyers, pretty much like this: port size = 4 should repair 0.40% per day for a destroyer; a port size = 5 should repair 0.45% per day; so, even for a destroyer the difference would be +0.05% per day for 4 ships, or about +1% or +2% per month. As a destroyer repairs +1% or +2% every couple of days even for a port size=4, there is no way to differentiate the effect of AR ships from random fluctuations.

In case of big ships on big ports, ARs produce about 1/3 more repairs - what is pretty effective.

Regards,
F.


4 CVs WITH 50% SYS DAMAGE (durability = 90)
30 TURNS

PORT SIZE=4
CVs ended with 41% + 46% + 49% + 49%
Total results = repaired 15%

PORT SIZE=4 + 4xAR
CVs ended with 44% + 45% + 47% + 50%
Total results = repaired 14%

Conclusion: no effects with port size=4

PORT SIZE=10
CVs ended with 45% + 47% + 47% + 47%
Total results = repaired 14%

PORT SIZE=10 + 4xAR
CVs ended with 42% + 44% + 47% + 47%
Total results = repaired 20%

Conclusion: +6% repairs over 30 days with 4xCV

4 BBs WITH 50% SYS DAMAGE (durability = 135)
30 TURNS

PORT SIZE=10
48 + 47 + 45 + 45
repaired 2+3+6+5 = 15%

PORT SIZE=10 + 4xAR
41 + 46 + 47 + 48
repaired 9 + 4 + 3 + 2 = 18%

Conclusion: +3% repairs over 30 days with 4xBB

< Message edited by fbastos -- 8/26/2004 11:46:26 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 1:38:38 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Even with 4xAR in a major repair yard the BB damaged during PH strike will require over 1 year to repair. (Thats after the time it takes to get them there. )

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 1:50:28 AM   
fbastos


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Mogami,

Yeap, agreed. Without any repair shipyards or ARs, four BBs would take about 30 months (=400/15%) to repair 100% damage, or 20 months (=400/20%) with 4xARs.

If the four BBs could make to separate ports with 100 repair yards, they would have repairs sped by 50%, therefore taking 15 months to repair 100% damage.

Bullseye, Mogami!

F.

< Message edited by fbastos -- 8/26/2004 11:54:20 PM >

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 1:52:26 AM   
fbastos


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Now, where do this number of 4xARs come from? I don't read that on the manual, and I'm using 4xARs to test AR effects because I've read around that's the maximum number of ARs that will take effect.

Is that right? Or will ARs stack indefinitely?

Regards,
F.

< Message edited by fbastos -- 8/26/2004 11:53:02 PM >

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 1:56:33 AM   
Mr.Frag


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It's a tough call to sort that one out ... each AR can help 4 ships ... not really sure that translates to 4 AR's being the maximum effect possible thought. One of those great mysteries in life like "why is the torpedo that hits the CV always the dud one"

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 2:06:05 AM   
mogami


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Hi, It could be another case of me reading one thing and my backwards brain getting it wrong.
I think if I had a slide rule.....No I mean you can calculate what the most effective set up is by using the repair yard size and then the damage level of each ship and it's class.
Repair points are consumed based on the durabilty of the ship being repaired. As such you can calculate the points required to repair a ship and subtract from the yard total and arrive at when you have too many ships there to repair them at a regualr rate. Then you divide the number of ships being repaired by four and send that many AR.
I have been operating under the impression that 4 AR was the most that would have any effect. (The 4xAR=1 port level)
It should be pointed out that you need a size 3 port to actually disband in. Sending 40xAR to a 0 port would repair ships but they would all be exposed to enemy submarine attack.
My system (That I am happy with) is to find a base out of enemy air range but close to the action and send 4 AR there. This port is used to repair ships minor damage or to prepare them for the transit back to a major repair yard.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 2:06:07 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

not really sure that translates to 4 AR's being the maximum effect possible thought.


quote:

I have been operating under the impression that 4 AR was the most that would have any effect.


Ha! Another thing to test!

F.

< Message edited by fbastos -- 8/27/2004 12:08:52 AM >

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 2:14:47 AM   
Hartley


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7000 capacity lost for couple of % points?

Doesn't sound so good.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 2:17:40 AM   
mogami


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Hi, That % might be what saves a ship that would otherwise flounder. AR are not meant to be replacement repair yards. They are meant to repair battle damage and maintain ships at the front. Having an AR present when a ship with 80+ flooding pulls into port is a major improvement to the same ship pulling into an empty size 3 port.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 2:44:42 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

7000 capacity lost for couple of % points?

Doesn't sound so good.


Hey, that's 1/3 faster repairs for to 4 BBs. A level 100 shipyard means 1/2 faster repairs for only one BB.

I think that's great - almost an overkill. Even if I'm exaggerating and doubling the effects of ARs, an AR will probably have the same effects as a level 100 shipyard when reparing 4 big ships.

Of course, a level 100 shipyard will do it much faster if we're talking about only one BB. If you're port is repairing only one ship, the AR is useless (very very small effects). But if you got your ports swamped and you ended with 4 big ships on a big port, an AR will more than double the effectiveness of that port.

So, an AR is useless when repairing one ship, and shine when reparing 4, right? Now, the big kicker: the ARs once again have very little effect if you got several boats on your port. The reason is that the port will repair them all, while the ARs will stick to 4 (and may even waste their repairs on small ships).

Therefore, the ARs can be really useful, but at the same time they need a very specific utilization.

Regards,
F.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 3:01:37 AM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

Therefore, the ARs can be really useful, but at the same time they need a very specific utilization.


You'll not be saying that when it fights off catastrophic flooding and lets you get that CV to a real base

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 3:15:48 AM   
fbastos


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Okies,

Test results for multiple ARs on the same base. Conclusions are:

(a) If multiple ARs have an effect different than a single AR, that is no greater than random fluctuations

Therefore, one can get multiple ARs on a base to try on luck, but I would say that one per base already gets you most of the bang one can notice. A definitive conclusion on this is difficult, as the probabilities change from very tiny to really small in any case.

Regards,
F.

Test results; each of those is for 30 repair turns. I assume +/- 3% variation on these results (these come from two freak days where you get lucky +1% and +2% repairs)

4xBBs WITH 99% SYS DAMAGE

PORT SIZE=10 + 1xAR
95 + 96 + 97 + 98
repaired 14% (+/- 3%)
repair rate = 0.12% (+/- 0.04%) / day / ship

PORT SIZE=10 + 12xAR
95 + 97 + 97 + 98
repaired 13% (+/- 3%)
repair rate = 0.11% (+/- 0.04%) / day / ship

13xBBs with 99% SYS damage:

PORT SIZE=10 + 1xAR
93 + 3x94 + 5x95 + 96 + 3x98
repaired 7 + 18 + 25 + 4 + 6 = 60%
repair rate = 0.15% (+/- 0.04%) / day / ship

PORT SIZE=10 + 12xAR
2x98 + 2x97 + 3x96 + 3x94 + 2x93 + 91
repaired 4 + 6 + 12 + 18 + 14 + 9 = 63%
repair rate = 0.16% (+/- 0.04%) / day / ship

< Message edited by fbastos -- 8/27/2004 1:20:59 AM >

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 3:18:52 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

You'll not be saying that when it fights off catastrophic flooding and lets you get that CV to a real base


That I haven't tested yet that an AR really helps. I expect one would, but then it may be doing nothing at all and the boat was saved out of luck.

Regards,
F.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 3:55:31 AM   
BartM


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remember, leader quality on the AR ship, plus any naval HQ's make a large difference. or seems to anyway. also be sure to change out your ship leaders to the best possible, and make sure your task forces use a seperate leader vs a ship leader (if possible). IJN seems to have more ability with this as the USN doesn't get alot of leaders out for a time.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 3:55:44 AM   
fbastos


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I've re-run most of the tests above just to be sure, and yeah, the average return I get with an AR is:

(a) An AR gives about 6% more SYS damage repaired per month
(b) Each of the 4 ships get about 1% to 2% more SYS repaired per month

That's important for big ships, as it is about 1/3 more repairs when your ports are swamped; it completely negligible for small ships, as it is about 1/10 to 1/15 more repairs (therefore can't be distinguished from random fluctuations).

Regards,
F.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 4:31:56 AM   
Nomad

 

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Has anyone tested how much increase you get with an AD for repairing DDs? They only help repair 2 DDs but they increase the port by 2 instead of 1. Maybe an AR and a AD in a port to help battle damage control would be the way to go.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 4:40:57 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

Has anyone tested how much increase you get with an AD for repairing DDs? They only help repair 2 DDs but they increase the port by 2 instead of 1. Maybe an AR and a AD in a port to help battle damage control would be the way to go.


THAT is a good point; that's probably by ARs don't help small ships much - otherwise they would put ADs out of their job.

F.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 5:10:17 AM   
fbastos


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Okies,

Effects of ARs on saving exploding / sinking ships. Used my fleet of 12 ARs to test for the extreme case, but once again I think that they don't stack, and only one of them is really working.

Conclusions are:

(a) An AR will give about 10% or 15% increased chances of saving a ship with 80% on damage/fires/flotation
(b) The size of the port has a much bigger effect than the presence of an AR ship
(c) ARs won't do miracles: if the port is too small and the damage too great, the ship will sink
(d) DISBAND that TF on arrival! You'll get lose the advantage from the AR if you keep the damaged ships on a TF (auto-disband is your friend)

Regards,
F.

Fleet of 15x BB, all with 80% damage, 80% fires, 80% flotation.

12xARs, PORT SIZE=10 -> all ships saved (ship has 0% chance of sinking)
NO ARs, PORT SIZE=10 -> 1 ship sunk (6.7% chance of sinking)

12xARs, PORT SIZE=6 -> 2 ships sunk (13% chance of sinking)
NO ARS, PORT SIZE=6 -> 4 ships sunk (26% chance of sinking)

12xARs, PORT SIZE=3 -> 9 ships sunk (60% chance of sinking)
NO ARs, PORT SIZE=3 -> 11 ships sunk (73% chance of sinking)

12x ARs, TF BY PORT SIZE=1 -> all ships sunk (100% chance of sinking)
NO ARs, TF BY PORT SIZE=1 -> all ships sunk (100% chance of sinking)

12x ARs, TF BY PORT SIZE=10 -> 2 ships sunk (13% chance of sinking)

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 5:18:19 AM   
eMonticello


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Therefore, the ARs can be really useful, but at the same time they need a very specific utilization.


You'll not be saying that when it fights off catastrophic flooding and lets you get that CV to a real base


fbastos, I believe that Mr. Frag is suggesting additional testing. I currently have one of the Dutch destroyers in Broome with 85% flotation damage that seems to fluctuate between 84% and 88% while in port. I sure wish I had an AR in the area so I can get it to Perth before sending it to Diamond Harbor for repairs (I use Perth as the termination port for the India-Oz convoy runs).

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 5:35:47 AM   
Mr.Frag


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You want an AD for that mess ... it's a double AR

Sorry, just had to throw that one out since fbastos is getting near to completing his AR tests

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 7:39:14 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

I currently have one of the Dutch destroyers in Broome with 85% flotation damage that seems to fluctuate between 84% and 88% while in port.


Perth? But Darwin is right over there with a port 5 (same as Perth). The port 3 on Broome is really bad, after 30 days on the port 3 on the test above several ships still had plenty of flotation damage. I would go for a pit stop on Derby (port 4), then Darwin - or if you still have the DEI, Soerabaja has an excellent port 8.

Regards,
F.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 7:42:03 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

remember, leader quality on the AR ship


That's a great point. Perhaps I should try some AR boats with leaders with all 99, and leaders with all 10, and see what happens.

Regarding naval HQ I'm not so sure; I kinda gave up on these, as I can't see much effect. Perhaps should retry my tests with a leader with all 99 - have been using Admiral Hart, who is not exactly brilliant.

Regards,
F.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 7:56:19 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

quote:

remember, leader quality on the AR ship


That's a great point. Perhaps I should try some AR boats with leaders with all 99, and leaders with all 10, and see what happens.

Regarding naval HQ I'm not so sure; I kinda gave up on these, as I can't see much effect. Perhaps should retry my tests with a leader with all 99 - have been using Admiral Hart, who is not exactly brilliant.

Regards,
F.


I hope some Capt of an AR does not govern the effect of the enlisted tradesmen.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 12:42:58 PM   
Twotribes


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Well lets hope leaders arent THAT important since there is a bug where the allied player loses his leaders randomly once assigned.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 4:51:43 PM   
KPAX


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I have just started the big one and only run a few days, but what I have found is that for those with float damage and first those got under control quickly. The fire was gone in a day or so (which is what you would expect).

However, fire damage seems to increase the SYS damage.

While float damage had large increase (upward of 5% for a BB in a day).

Does SYS damage take that much longer to fix than float damage ?

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 5:21:05 PM   
UncleBuck

 

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I wonder if it is worth using AR's and AD's as forward triage units. I have been doing this in my games, like MOgami. I set up a size X port (largest I can get and be mostly out of enemy Air) as a point to send teh damaged DD's BB's LST's whatever. I have been thinking that this was a good plan to help stop Fires and Flooding. SYS damage is not that important to me. If I can keep it afloat I can fix it later. I dump around 50K in supply on the islands, most have size 3 port, and 3 AF for CAP. I do not usually have a Naval HQ at these forward bases as I want that bonus back at my repair yards. I guess I have a mission now to find out. I wonder if the tutorial will let me do this...HMMM.

UB

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 5:22:35 PM   
Kereguelen


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Float damage is the water in the ship and sys damage is the damage to the structure of the ship. Float damage may sink (literally) a ship. When stopped, the structural damage (sys damage) is being repaired.

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 5:35:22 PM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

Regarding naval HQ I'm not so sure; I kinda gave up on these, as I can't see much effect. Perhaps should retry my tests with a leader with all 99 - have been using Admiral Hart, who is not exactly brilliant.


Fleet HQ are +2/+3 based on size ... Keep testing

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 7:32:56 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
Fleet of 15x BB, all with 80% damage, 80% fires, 80% flotation.

12xARs, PORT SIZE=10 -> all ships saved (ship has 0% chance of sinking)
NO ARs, PORT SIZE=10 -> 1 ship sunk (6.7% chance of sinking)

12xARs, PORT SIZE=6 -> 2 ships sunk (13% chance of sinking)
NO ARS, PORT SIZE=6 -> 4 ships sunk (26% chance of sinking)

12xARs, PORT SIZE=3 -> 9 ships sunk (60% chance of sinking)
NO ARs, PORT SIZE=3 -> 11 ships sunk (73% chance of sinking)

12x ARs, TF BY PORT SIZE=1 -> all ships sunk (100% chance of sinking)
NO ARs, TF BY PORT SIZE=1 -> all ships sunk (100% chance of sinking)

12x ARs, TF BY PORT SIZE=10 -> 2 ships sunk (13% chance of sinking)


Were these Alerican ships or Japanese ships? It's been my experience that the Japanese ships suffer worse damage control than the US even when the "improved Allied Damage Control" option is not being used. Does anyone know if IJN and Allied damage control is equal when the optional improved damage control is not being used?

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RE: Hallellujah! Can see effects of AR Ships! - 8/27/2004 7:38:44 PM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

Does anyone know if IJN and Allied damage control is equal when the optional improved damage control is not being used?


I believe they are identical with the option turned off.

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