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are players always passive ? - 8/11/2004 11:56:52 PM   
LarkinVB

 

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After reading 100+ AARs I come to the conclusion that players tend to be passive and hide in a good defensive spot. Is this common tactics ? The game seems not to reflect that offensive and initiative tactics can lead to victory. When I play with my friend hotseat in a shared team he is always proposing to take a defensive stance near the baseline whereas I prefer to play more offensive. Its more fun - for me. I invented that the AI will hide but its more unlikely to happen than its usual rushes. Any ideas on how to improve more dynamic battles ? Or is it ok the way it is ?
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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/12/2004 12:47:28 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarkinVB

After reading 100+ AARs I come to the conclusion that players tend to be passive and hide in a good defensive spot. Is this common tactics ?


Yes. I'd say it's very common tactics.

However, Titan seletion/preferences play a role also. I'm not a CC-nut , give me a BRG or AC7 and about 5-7 hexes any day. This leds me into a more defensive stance. When I do use CC titans they definately take a more offensive role as tactics and terrian preferences for CC are quite different then for ranged weapons. Also at high ranks, my squads get more offensive as the enemy jocks more commonly make burnable cover more of a hindence then a help or they'll just missle it away in a short period of time. I'll rarely park a Assault in cover. I'll just have to move out of it and that can take a while. Also at higher ranks you have a good enough to-hit score that you can move and fire and still get good to-hit scores and not overheat your titan.

The 'goal' of a random battle also has an effect, you only have to disable the enemy, there's no driving force to up and take the inititive, the battle is going to happen, make it happen on your terms and 'going over the top' into no man's land or walking into an ambush isn't normally advantagous, much better to stay in the trenches and shoot the other guy when he go's 'over the top'.. This is one of the reasons the campaign missions are so fun, they give a reason to take the initive; it changes the goal.

Just my obervations and $.02... give or take a buck.


quote:

Any ideas on how to improve more dynamic battles ? Or is it ok the way it is ?



Not sure, will think about it. First thing that comes to mind is make the AI hide more, but haven't thought that through.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/12/2004 12:59:45 AM   
Reliable Royce


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarkinVB
Any ideas on how to improve more dynamic battles ?


I like to keep a N.M.7 around for lighting forests on fire. Enemy Titans seem to move rather quickly when you do that to them.

Royce

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/12/2004 1:47:30 AM   
Burzmali

 

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I prefer a combination of BRGs, NBs and EMPs at close range, so I will close. However, unless I am really lucky, the AI has at least 2 ATs with a decent LR capacity and with the AI's greater 'organizational skills' I end up getting taken apart unless I am both lucky and methodical with the ACs. But I rarely try to close to the same hex unless it is absolutely necessary because even the most LR aspected AT seems to be just as effective at CC with fists and legs.

One solution might be to increase the effectiveness of smoke screens, more often then I can count I have gotten taken apart because I misjudged the heights involved in a smoke screen.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/12/2004 2:15:10 AM   
Thorgrim

 

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Put the timer event to good use?
When a random map is created, there is a chance that it will be an "offensive" mission, with a time limit. If you don't make it within the time frame, you don't get paid. Not sure if it should be counted as a defeat though.

edit: this should probably be an "enable/disable" setting in the map options, like fog of war.


BTW, are draws counted as wins or losses (or none) for custom squads?

< Message edited by Thorgrim -- 8/12/2004 12:23:32 AM >


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Iceman

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/12/2004 2:30:37 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thorgrim
BTW, are draws counted as wins or losses (or none) for custom squads?


They are counted as wins (from my AAR experiences)

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/12/2004 5:03:04 AM   
aquietfrog


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I'm usually compelled to take the initiative to be offensive when the enemy is LR and when my squad cannot win in a standoff. It happens sometimes but more often than not, defensive positionings are taken especially if the enemy has heavier weight classes.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/12/2004 9:12:36 AM   
Peter Why

 

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Larkin, what you've seen may be an artifact of the conditions that Sleeping Dragon set for this sequence of battles. When a player knows that a disastrous outcome can't be corrected, he tends to play conservatively. I know that playing to these rules has meant that I've learned more about firing from cover and using static support titans at a distance. I do still like charging in (my recent team had 3 CC titans plus two supports), but you can lose titans very suddenly .. it happened in my last battle; I'll put the report on the thread later today.

Another possibility is that perhaps the way the AARs are reported emphasises the more static, tactical side of the game .. I don't know how you analysed the games for your assessment.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/13/2004 2:00:02 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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My AAR squad is a little more conservitive then normal, but to tell the truth.. not by much at the ranks I'm playing. At low ranks I seem to be all about charging with CC titans (rarely) or crouching in advantagous terrain with ranged titans. As rank increases my jocks do get more aggressive. Actullay my last two battle for the AAR (which I haven't reported yet) were both fluid. The 1st one by plan, the second one happened by 'surprise' as a result of terrian layout but I'd sorta expected it once I saw the map. This increase in movement is a direct result of me feeling more comfortable with my more experienced jocks abilities and the titans they're piloting.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/13/2004 5:55:11 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarkinVB
Any ideas on how to improve more dynamic battles ? Or is it ok the way it is ?



Iceman may be on to something with the timer. Maybe make 10-20%? of the battles on a timer and if the squad wins before the timer runs out they get a payment bonus or if they don't, a payment reduction, but the battle will play out for a win or defeat even if the timer expires. Just let them know ahead of time. If you seriously consider this you'd have to figure some formula for how long it should take the squad to win, probably based on total tonnage/rank/etc.

< Message edited by Sleeping_Dragon -- 8/12/2004 10:56:28 PM >


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RE: are players always passive ? - 8/13/2004 2:34:16 PM   
elmo3

 

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Sounds interesting, and I agree it should be optional.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 9/15/2004 6:17:29 AM   
Doomboy

 

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Yeah, they need more possibilities in the 'random fight' missions.

Try:

1) Retrieve the satellite. One side must grab a satellite placed (and hidden) randomly on the map, and move the titan off the map with it. Suddenly, hiding isn't such a good idea.

2) Kill the spy. A spy in a landing craft is hiding on the map. One side must find and retrieve him (as above), the other must kill him.

3) Defend the objectives. A random number of objective hexes are placed on the map. THe team holding the most objectives at the end of the time period wins.

4) Defend the zone. One team starts in a defensive spot, and most keep all enemy ATs out of it. Naturally, the attackers get a tonnage advantage, but this would let the computer be on the defensive for a change.

Those are just off the top of my head, and wouldn't be TOO rough for the AI to handle.

Take care,

Rick

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Post #: 12
RE: are players always passive ? - 12/2/2004 9:40:43 PM   
Black Knight

 

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5) Apocalypse: After a fixed period of time, a meteorite shower or a barrage of artillery starts and everyone who's hit takes a very high amount of damage ...

Or: A new weapon would help: A mortar, or an artillery cannon. I would like to see this weapons mounted on a titan. They would have a very long range and damage, but would be very inaccurate. Also, they could be used for indirect fire, and they would have a minimum range. (Yeah, sounds like the heat seeker missile, but would be very interesting for bombarding hexes where snipers are covered against normal attacks)The most important thing would be, that the hit chances for moving targets would be modified by at least -25%, so that the mortar would be only useful against motionless targets.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/3/2004 10:09:24 AM   
Thorgrim

 

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You've just kinda described LRMs and GMHs. They are great to tag targets in woods, as if they miss the target, they reduce the woods. You can also target the woods instead, for cutting them down faster.

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Post #: 14
RE: are players always passive ? - 12/3/2004 4:14:02 PM   
Black Knight

 

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I don't think that the GMHs and LRMs are very unaccurate ...

And, I don't know why, does everyone say, that GMHs are so dangerous? In fact, they have long range and good accuracy, but it seems to me, that the damage it causes is only poor. Is there a trick to make them useful in combat?

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/3/2004 6:10:49 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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Hence the word kinda Doesn't make much sense having a new weapon that does the same thing but is less accurate, right? LRMs are not that accurate anyways.

GMHs are not any more or less dangerous than any other weapon. They do have an extreme range though, and compared to the AC4, the only other LR weapon besides LRMs, they are fine. In open terrain, 22 hexes of effective, non penalized range can be devastating. 4 damage per missile is quite good, compared to LRMs. They do have disadvantages, of course.
Tricks, use spotters to get even better to hits. Always take the high ground (JPs might come in handy). If the target deploys flares, switch to a target that doesn't have them. Avoid targeting titans in burning woods, fire deflects GMHs same as flares. Avoid targeting titans with ECM if possible.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/3/2004 7:13:14 PM   
Black Knight

 

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I already knew that tactics. But if i have a choice between GMHs and GMEs, i would take the GMEs, because they can do a lot of damage to an enemy, packed with electronics.

But i just would like to have a mortar. The differences between GMH and Mortar:

Firstly, the Mortar would be a cannon. It would have faster reloading time, it would need ammo, it would cause far more damage (like ranging from 10 to 25 damage points, depending on the calibre) than the GMHs, it would have an increased chance to force the enemy to do a skill check (due to the impact power). And last but not least, it would have a unique abillity: The abillity to damage multiple Titans at once, when they are on the same hex.

Are the Mortar and the GMHs now different enough?

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/3/2004 7:37:17 PM   
Burzmali

 

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I can't easily imagine a mortar cannon that could cover around 87000 sq meters with "impacts". Well, not one that you could be carrying all that many reloads for...

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/4/2004 1:31:30 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Knight
... they have long range and good accuracy, but it seems to me, that the damage it causes is only poor.

Is there a trick to make them useful in combat?



Use lots of them


If they were any better; then, when used in large quanities they would be over-powered, IMO.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/4/2004 2:32:21 AM   
Thorgrim

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Knight
But i just would like to have a mortar. The differences between GMH and Mortar:

Firstly, the Mortar would be a cannon. It would have faster reloading time,


Slightly faster, maybe. Arty weapons don't reload fast though.

quote:


it would need ammo,


Missiles need ammo too.

quote:


it would cause far more damage (like ranging from 10 to 25 damage points, depending on the calibre) than the GMHs,


GMH4s can deal up to 16.

quote:


it would have an increased chance to force the enemy to do a skill check (due to the impact power).


Shrapnel as opposed to the direct impact of a cruise missile?

quote:


And last but not least, it would have a unique abillity: The abillity to damage multiple Titans at once, when they are on the same hex.

Are the Mortar and the GMHs now different enough?


10 to 25 damage to each titan, now that's overpowered.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/6/2004 11:21:35 PM   
Black Knight

 

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quote:

Slightly faster, maybe. Arty weapons don't reload fast though.


Ever seen artillery in action? Then, you would know, what i mean. Real artillery cannons fire about 1 shot/10 seconds. That's slightly faster than the GMHs reload, isn't it?

quote:

Shrapnel as opposed to the direct impact of a cruise missile?


Who was speaking of shrapnells? They would be completely useless against armor, i guess. I mean the sheer explosion blast, that would knock the enemy down.

quote:

10 to 25 damage to each titan, now that's overpowered.


That's why enemies would avoid to get two of their Titans into one hex at the same time. Also, for a weapon of that size and costs, it wouldn't be overpowered. In fact, it would be the most expensive and biggest weapon available on Titans (and therefore, the most destructive).

< Message edited by Black Knight -- 12/6/2004 11:19:37 PM >

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/7/2004 12:23:32 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Knight

Ever seen artillery in action? Then, you would know, what i mean. Real artillery cannons fire about 1 shot/10 seconds. That's slightly faster than the GMHs reload, isn't it?


Oh yeah, I was in artill back in my service days
As for GMHs, that's a game balance issue. GMH2s reload faster than GMH4s.

quote:


Who was speaking of shrapnells? They would be completely useless against armor, i guess. I mean the sheer explosion blast, that would knock the enemy down.


An he is 333m across. You mean all titans in it are hugging each other so they can take the brunt of the explosion? And the chance of a direct hit from an artill cannon...

quote:


That's why enemies would avoid to get two of their Titans into one hex at the same time. Also, for a weapon of that size and costs, it wouldn't be overpowered. In fact, it would be the most expensive and biggest weapon available on Titans (and therefore, the most destructive).


And it would be quite useless. As soon as your opponent figured you had invested such weight, size and cost in it, he would avoid crouding his titans together, therefore negating you part of your force.
This weapon was one of the possibilities for WS, but it didn't make it. A similar discussion occured at the time.

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/7/2004 2:56:12 PM   
Burzmali

 

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Besides, how does one allocate damage due to an all encompassing shockwave?

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RE: are players always passive ? - 12/7/2004 4:18:45 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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Assuming there should be physical damage from a shockwave.

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Iceman

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