Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 7 [8]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:58:14 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline
quote:

This "discussion" with you has deteriorated right where I expected it to go, based on your past comments.

So, I am just going to ignore your posts.



What again

I think it's very funny that you choose to ignore posts that you don't like by claiming that they are ignorant and therefore 'unworthy' of your august attention

< Message edited by EricGuitarJames -- 8/15/2004 2:00:42 AM >


_____________________________

It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
Post #: 211
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:59:10 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


[Snipped for space]

Regards,
IronDuke


You also have a large group of very powerful individuals (former Nazis) living abroad and in Germany, who have an interest to ensure that Bormann's death "occurs" in Berlin; they are protecting their "leader".

They will also go out of their way to try to discredit anyone trying to ferret out both Bormann's existence as well as where all the Nazi loot was taken.

Remember that this is about far more than just the existence of Bormann; it is also (to a greater extent) about the existence of tens of thousands of Nazis who fled to other countries with billions of dollars, and the network they have setup since the end of WWII.

It is also about the Vatican, which aided the escape of thousands of these wanted Nazis.

Naziism did NOT die with the Third Reich.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 2:02:25 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
Post #: 212
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:02:50 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline
This just gets funnier and funnier. Von Rom, you missed your calling in life. You should have been a comedien

_____________________________

It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 213
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:03:28 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
AFTERMATH

Ladislas Farago.
Avon (Hearst Corporation, N.Y. 1974)

Page 101. "Martin Bormann, and other escapees like him, escaped to Argentina in 1948, having sailed from Genoa with false documents issued by the Vatican."

Page 241. "Around 1947, the department of the Vatican's Secretariate of State helped displaced persons UNDER THE DIRECTION OF MONSIGNOR JOSE MONTINI, WHOSE ASSISTANT WAS AN ARGENTINIAN PRIEST, NAMED SILVA." Silva was the link to Martin Bormann.

OSS: THE SECRET HISTORY OF AMERICA'S FIRST CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
R. Harris Smith, University of California Press.

MSGR. Biovanni Montini organized an intelligence pipeline that ran from the Vatican mission in Tokyo to the Vatican itself, to the Irish embassy in Rome. Messages were sent by OSS agents. Montini went on to become Pope Paul VI.

_____________________________


(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 214
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:04:48 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline
You've got to say one thing for Farago, he certainly has a fertile imagination.

_____________________________

It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 215
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:12:50 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

You've got to say one thing for Farago, he certainly has a fertile imagination.


Now you're just being a pest.

Now go back to reading your comic books.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 216
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:15:29 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
A Nazi's Trail Leads to Gold -- Looted From Jews? -- In Brazil

By DIANA JEAN SCHEMO


SAO PAULO, Brazil -- Albert Blume died 14 years ago, an outcast and a mystery to his relatives, buried in a poor man's grave. As odd as his life was his legacy -- a $4 million fortune in luxury watches, rings, gold bars and gold teeth for which an aging aunt has been battling in court since his death.

The case might have ended unnoticed this year, with a court-appointed executor finally handing over the treasure to Blume's aunt, Margarida Blume. Instead, it has caught the attention of Brazil's first commission to investigate Nazi war criminals who fled here with looted Jewish property, as well as those who helped them flee.

Rabbi Marvin Hier, head of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, said the Blume case "appears to be the first concrete discovery of a perpetrator's account, which is where we believe the lion's share of the Jewish wealth was hidden."

Suddenly the bizarre details and contradictions in Blume's life are kindling interest among Brazilians in a chapter of their past that once seemed remote, irrelevant or taboo -- a South American counterpart to the scandal over Swiss banks that swallowed Jewish assets.

Theories about Blume's treasure abound, but for now they are only theories.

Some say that Blume, who lived out his life as a pawnbroker, fled to Brazil to escape Nazi persecution of homosexuals and that the gold was merely collateral for loans.

But Rabbi Henry Sobel, the chief rabbi of Brazil, who heads the Brazilian commission, and others contend that Blume never owned the fortune. More likely, they say, this German-born member of the Nazi Party was sent to Brazil in 1938 as a spy and was later used as a conduit for stolen gold that now lies in a bank vault in his name. They believe that Blume was holding it for a similarly named war criminal in Argentina, whose Nuremberg death sentence was commuted in 1951.

By raising these questions, the investigating commission is challenging Brazilians to color in the pages of an era that has only been outlined until now -- the history of Operation Odessa, a German plan devised in the final days of World War II to smuggle senior Nazis to South America.

The commission is reporting on stolen masterpieces, like a $1 million Madonna by Raphael that came here, and on dormant accounts opened by Nazis who fled here that are worth $15 million. One result, after decades of public indifference, is a belated national assessment of how Odessa worked and why South Americans allowed it to work so well.

If the "final solution" was the industrialized murder of European Jewry, the looting of the dead was no less systematic.

From August 1942 to late 1944, the Nazi SS organized scores of shipments -- of currency, jewelry and gold teeth -- from death camps to the Reichsbank in Berlin, the journalist Ladislas Farago wrote in his 1974 book, "Aftermath: Martin Bormann and the Fourth Reich" (Simon & Schuster). At one point, he wrote, some 30 clerks were needed to sort and repackage the valuables.

With defeat imminent, senior German officials began hiding looted property in foreign accounts as part of a vast operation that the Allies code-named Safe Haven. Some of that money helped finance Odessa, an underground railroad for Nazi officials who were fleeing Germany and expected arrest.

Their escape routes crossed Spain, Portugal and Italy, with Argentina the most frequent destination. Hier says they received help from within the International Red Cross, which gave travel documents to fleeing Nazis, and from within the Vatican, where Bishop Alois Hudal gave shelter and false travel papers and passports.

In Argentina, President Juan Domingo Peron was openly sympathetic and only too ready to accept Nazi gold. Kim Gordon Bates, a spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva, said the Red Cross did not knowingly help Nazis escape justice. "We assist people in need," Bates said. "We don't establish the bona fides of people who come to us for help."

In the past, the Vatican has maintained that Hudal and his boss, Msgr. Giovanni Battista Montini -- later Pope Paul VI -- acted out of Christian charity.

Asked whether the pope at the time, Pius XII, had known of Hudal's role, the Rev. Ciro Benedettini, deputy spokesman for the Vatican, said in a telephone interview, "Generally the Vatican leaves this problem to the historians, because much time has passed and it's difficult to say what happened."

Arriving in South America, the fugitives relied on Nazi networks built up throughout the continent before and during the war, said Stanley Hilton, author of "Hitler's Secret War in South America" (Ballantine, 1977).

Among the fugitives was Klaus Barbie, the Gestapo chief nicknamed the Butcher of Lyons, who lived openly in Bolivia for years until he was finally extradited in 1983 for trial in France.

In Brazil, Dr. Josef Mengele -- the "Angel of Death" who selected victims for the gas chambers at Auschwitz and conducted medical experiments on humans -- picked up his scalpel again, performing illegal abortions without anesthesia in the state of Parana. Though he used an alias, the Brazilian secret police knew of his past for 11 years before his death in 1979, the Brazilian press reported in the 1980s.

In Chile, successive governments refused to extradite Walter Rauff, who was responsible for the mobile gas vans that killed 97,000 Jews in Eastern Europe. In Brazil, courts turned down a West German request for Gustav Franz Wagner, second-in-command at the Sobibor death camp, in 1979.

Only now are Brazilians bringing to light official complicity in helping the Nazis, said Maria Tucci Carneiro, author of "Anti-Semitism in the Vargas Era (1930-1945)."

Despite the interest overseas, which peaked with Adolf Eichmann's kidnapping from Argentina in 1960 for trial in Jerusalem, textbooks here never addressed government policies that allowed known Nazis to enter Brazil while barring Jewish refugees, she said. "It was taboo."

But with recent worldwide revelations of assets stolen from Jews, which led to the creation of the Brazilian commission, that is changing.

"In 1989 and 1992," said Otavio Costa, managing editor of Manchete, the magazine that revived the questions that first surfaced in 1989 surrounding Blume's estate, "there was nothing similar happening in the rest of the world that this was a part of. Right now, it's the opposite."

Marcelo Ponte, managing editor of Jornal do Brasil, a Rio daily, said the interest was more on the level of soap opera. "The Blume story has an element of mystery that fascinates people, that awakens their curiosity," he said. He pointed out that this is a country where crimes typically go unpunished thanks to connections or bribes and there remains a tendency to view war criminals as just a variation on that theme.

At the same time, the Brazilian commission, with the help of the World Jewish Congress, has identified 14 dormant Nazi accounts worth $15 million, and it has taken testimony from Brazil's Holocaust survivors about their losses.

But its most intriguing inquiries involve Blume and the panel's efforts to determine whether the fortune he left behind came from victims of the Holocaust.

A lawyer for the Blume family, Fernando Simas, said there was no way to prove where the contents of the vault came from, though he acknowledged that they included gold teeth and fillings.

"I don't know how to explain them, but how can someone prove they belonged to the mouth of a Jew 50 years ago?" said Simas, who is married to a cousin of Blume.

The Manchete article described Blume as a key figure in Operation Odessa, relying heavily on research by Ben Abraham, a Holocaust survivor and historian.

In an interview, Abraham said that among Blume's papers -- copies of which were passed to him by a journalist several years ago -- were identity documents and Gestapo promotions belonging to a Col. Walter Blume, who was sentenced at Nuremberg to hang for killing Jews in Eastern Europe.

Because Albert Blume's way of life appeared miserly, Abraham reasoned that the fortune must not have been his to spend. He contends that Blume came to Brazil as a spy and later helped resettle Nazis.

Sobel, working independently of Abraham, said he recently received two volumes of diaries that he was told had belonged to Blume. In one, the author wrote that he had received money from a colleague in Germany, for which he would serve as guardian.

Hier said Walter Blume commanded Unit 7-A of Einsatzgruppe B. The Einsatzgruppen followed the German Army into the Soviet Union, killing hundreds of thousands of Jews and Communist officials, often in mass slayings like the one at Babi Yar in Ukraine.

Testifying at Nuremberg, Colonel Blume said he had killed 200 civilians; the judge estimated 1,000. In Lithuania, Colonel Blume ordered the destruction of the ghetto at Vilnius, a celebrated center of Jewish learning and life.

Colonel Blume's 1948 death sentence was commuted in 1951 to 25 years and was reduced further by German judges in 1955. After release, he is believed to have gone to Buenos Aires, Argentina. It is not known whether he is still alive.

As for Albert Blume, he was a remote figure even to his relatives, said Ricardo Penteado, a court-assigned executor who is ferreting through family records to determine Blume's legal heir. They disapproved of his homosexuality and had broken ties with him.

Penteado said papers in the vault showed that Blume joined the Nazi Party in 1933 but was reprimanded two years later for not being an active enough member and expelled in 1936. In 1938 he came to Brazil to work for E. Schlemm & Co., a concern that acted as an agent for German companies trading in Brazil.

Penteado said he doubted that Albert Blume had had any ties to Nazism in Brazil. The gold dental work, he said, could have been collateral for Blume, a pawnbroker, although there are no records showing that he lent money for teeth. Nor were gold bars unusual. "Anybody can buy gold bullion," he said.

Penteado said he did not know when, or why, Albert Blume began using the nickname "Willi," a seemingly odd choice, since his family tree shows a brother by that name. Or why, after he had been expelled from the party, Blume still signed his letters "Heil Hitler."

Margarida Blume, 95, who stands to inherit the wealth, has remained largely cloistered in a modest home in Santa Catarina. She reportedly asserted that she had seen Blume only once, but said, "I do not believe my nephew was a Nazi."

Penteado said he would recommend that the court grant Margarida Blume the fortune. If the commission believes that it came from Holocaust victims, he said, they will have to battle the Blume family in court to retrieve it.

"My job is not to worry about where this money came from," Penteado said, "but where it should go."

_____________________________


(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 217
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:16:52 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline
I thought you said you were going to ignore my posts.

Nice attachment, don't overuse it, I downloaded it too

Anyway, you can quit quoting Farrago (sic), I think you've shown how thoroughly discredited his 'theories' are. So where's Elvis?

_____________________________

It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 218
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:21:43 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


[Snipped for space]

Regards,
IronDuke


You also have a large group of very powerful individuals (former Nazis) living abroad and in Germany, who have an interest to ensure that Bormann's death "occurs" in Berlin; they are protecting their "leader".

They will also go out of their way to try to discredit anyone trying to ferret out both Bormann's existence as well as where all the Nazi loot was taken.

Remember that this is about far more than just the existence of Bormann; it is also (to a greater extent) about the existence of tens of thousands of Nazis who fled to other countries with billions of dollars, and the network they have setup since the end of WWII.

It is also about the Vatican, which aided the escape of thousands of these wanted Nazis.

Naziism did NOT die with the Third Reich.


Who? Can you name them? I bet you can't, because ultimately, that's how conspiracies thrive. Lots of "ifs" and "possibles" but no hard fact.

Just look at the list of people we know didn't survive the end of the Third Reich. A number of middle ranking NAZIS did get away, or were never traced, but if there was such a well organised pipeline, how come Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, Goring, Kaltenbrunner, Speer, Frank, Keitel, Jodl, Dietrich, Meyer, Peiper,
Streicher, and thousands of others failed to get out? What about Hoess, the Einsatzgruppen Commanders, the Waffen SS hierachy?

The highest ranking Officer I can think of off the top of my head was Eichmann (who Mossad found, kidnapped, tried and executed).

NAZISM did not die in 1945, but neither did it create some form of shadow state which has been pulling strings ever since. Communism did not die with the advent of GLASNOST either. Yes, there were plenty of NAZIs in German life after WWII, but that was because the number of card carrying members of the party and SS ran into millions, and you couldn't try them all, not when the cold war was erupting and we were finding a new reason to be friends with the West Germans. Rightly or wrongly, these men existed not to serve Odessa, but because it was no longer in Western Europe's interests to hunt them all down.

I am called naive. Oh, the irony....

Regards,
IronDuke

< Message edited by IronDuke -- 8/15/2004 2:25:04 AM >

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 219
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:22:29 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I thought you said you were going to ignore my posts.

Nice attachment, don't overuse it, I downloaded it too

Anyway, you can quit quoting Farrago (sic), I think you've shown how thoroughly discredited his 'theories' are. So where's Elvis?



You are a very immature and silly person. . .

And people wonder why I don't respond to certain posts.

Good-bye. . .

_____________________________


(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 220
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:28:54 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline
You flouncing off again Von Rom, just like you did sooooo many times in the original Patton thread. This whole forum must be so beneath your mighty intellect, I wonder why you ever bothered in the first place

_____________________________

It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 221
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:34:12 AM   
marky


Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
pattons got my vote

1 of the greatest generals EVER

PERIOD



if they had given patton supplies and a few hundred thousand gallons of gas, he wouldve gone right thru the siegfried line, into germany and personally shot that bastard hitler!



i can say bastard right lol?

_____________________________


(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 222
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:36:27 AM   
Error in 0


Posts: 236
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marky

pattons got my vote

1 of the greatest generals EVER

PERIOD



if they had given patton supplies and a few hundred thousand gallons of gas, he wouldve gone right thru the siegfried line, into germany and personally shot that bastard hitler!



i can say bastard right lol?



(in reply to marky)
Post #: 223
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:38:09 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


Just look at the list of people we know didn't survive the end of the Third Reich. A number of middle ranking NAZIS did get away, or were never traced, but if there was such a well organised pipeline, how come Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, Goring, Kaltenbrunner, Speer, Frank, Keitel, Jodl, Dietrich, Meyer, Peiper,
Streicher, and thousands of others failed to get out? What about Hoess, the Einsatzgruppen Commanders, the Waffen SS hierachy?

The highest ranking Officer I can think of off the top of my head was Eichmann (who Mossad found, kidnapped, tried and executed).

NAZISM did not die in 1945, but neither did it create some form of shadow state which has been pulling strings ever since. Communism did not die with the advent of GLASNOST either. Yes, there were plenty of NAZIs in German life after WWII, but that was because the number of card carrying members of the party and SS ran into millions, and you couldn't try them all, not when the cold war was erupting and we were finding a new reason to be friends with the West Germans. Rightly or wrongly, these men existed not to serve Odessa, but because it was no longer in Western Europe's interests to hunt them all down.

I am called naive. Oh, the irony....

Regards,
IronDuke


A lot of the middle and lower ranking Nazis were never prosecuted because they were the ones with the necessary administrative skills to actually run the country. Back to Bormann though, if Faragos ideas were correct, what did he actually do with all that money? Most of the former Nazis who fled to South America lived in virtual penury! Frankly, it just doesn't add up! In any case, it appears that much of the looted gold went to pay for war goods (via the Bank of International Settlements) or ended up in Swiss bank accounts with those from whom it was stolen still trying to retrieve it.

_____________________________

It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
Post #: 224
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:47:41 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 8979
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
Was Pieper a Nazi? Too bad if true...

Hello egj, where did your cool moniker come from?

(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 225
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:55:15 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Was Pieper a Nazi? Too bad if true...

Hello egj, where did your cool moniker come from?


Joined the SS in 1933. He had two brothers, both in the SS. Joined the Waffen SS (or it's historical antecendent). Selected for Officer training. Became an assistant to Himmler in 1939 so missed the start of the war, but would have had inside knowledge on what was planned for Poland.

According to American witnesses, he was still talking of final victory as he prepared to evacuate the Ardennes after the failed Bulge offensive in late December 1944.

What he felt after the infamous Armband order is anyone's guess, but it's a fairly safe bet he was a NAZI.

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 226
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 4:58:49 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy



Hello egj, where did your cool moniker come from?


Being Eric James and playing guitar. Head over to www.rainbowbridgemusic.com for a good laugh

_____________________________

It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 227
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 8:41:51 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


[Snipped for space]

Regards,
IronDuke


You also have a large group of very powerful individuals (former Nazis) living abroad and in Germany, who have an interest to ensure that Bormann's death "occurs" in Berlin; they are protecting their "leader".

They will also go out of their way to try to discredit anyone trying to ferret out both Bormann's existence as well as where all the Nazi loot was taken.

Remember that this is about far more than just the existence of Bormann; it is also (to a greater extent) about the existence of tens of thousands of Nazis who fled to other countries with billions of dollars, and the network they have setup since the end of WWII.

It is also about the Vatican, which aided the escape of thousands of these wanted Nazis.

Naziism did NOT die with the Third Reich.


Who? Can you name them? I bet you can't, because ultimately, that's how conspiracies thrive. Lots of "ifs" and "possibles" but no hard fact.

Just look at the list of people we know didn't survive the end of the Third Reich. A number of middle ranking NAZIS did get away, or were never traced, but if there was such a well organised pipeline, how come Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, Goring, Kaltenbrunner, Speer, Frank, Keitel, Jodl, Dietrich, Meyer, Peiper,
Streicher, and thousands of others failed to get out? What about Hoess, the Einsatzgruppen Commanders, the Waffen SS hierachy?

The highest ranking Officer I can think of off the top of my head was Eichmann (who Mossad found, kidnapped, tried and executed).

NAZISM did not die in 1945, but neither did it create some form of shadow state which has been pulling strings ever since. Communism did not die with the advent of GLASNOST either. Yes, there were plenty of NAZIs in German life after WWII, but that was because the number of card carrying members of the party and SS ran into millions, and you couldn't try them all, not when the cold war was erupting and we were finding a new reason to be friends with the West Germans. Rightly or wrongly, these men existed not to serve Odessa, but because it was no longer in Western Europe's interests to hunt them all down.

I am called naive. Oh, the irony....

Regards,
IronDuke



ID:

I am not being dramatic when I state what I have above.

Maybe I just read too much, and then assume other people also know the same things.

However, all of what I have said is no secret and the information can be found in several good books at the local libraries.

You seem like an intelligent person.

I am not going to spend the next few days making post after post trying to explain what I feel is fairly common knowledge that most people, who are interested in miltary and political affairs as well as our past, should know about.

I can provide a list of books that are well researched and will provide you with a wealth of knowledge about post-WWII Nazis activities, the Vatican involvement as well as a host of other issues.

I do not believe in conspiracies and little green men.

I have read a number of books on this issue over a period of years.

I am not being confrontatonal here as I feel this is a vital area people should know about.

There are a lot of dirty little secrets from WWII, and there are plenty of people and organizations that do not want this info to get out.

The Bormann issue, is to me, really a red herring. Why?

He is only one man. However, what he built and created during and after the war, is even more important to know about.

And all this information has been garnered from previously classified documents.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 6:56:29 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
Post #: 228
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 8:47:51 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

You flouncing off again Von Rom, just like you did sooooo many times in the original Patton thread. This whole forum must be so beneath your mighty intellect, I wonder why you ever bothered in the first place


At first I thought we could have had a decent discussion of the Bormann issue.

A number of important issues surrounding Bormann are important.

Rather than discuss the situation rationally, you just attacked Farago and that is really uncalled for.

Farago has impeccable credentials, and he and others uncovered a great deal about Bormann and what he had put together in a post-WWII world.

This is not pie-in-the-sky stuff. This is reality, and most of the information has come from previously classified documents.

Your silly approach is what eventually made me see the pointlessness of discussing it with you.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 7:28:27 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 229
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 8:59:45 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
MARTIN BORMANN: NAZI IN EXILE

By Paul Manning




1) Adolf Eich­mann, captured by Israeli agents in Argentina in 1960, confirmed that Bormann [was] alive and dwelling in South America. (p.14)

2) In 1972 the eighty-five-year-old bishop of Munich, Johannes Neuhausler, made public a document of the Roman Catholic Church, which stated that Bormann had escaped to Spain. The document said, in part: Albert Bormann had awaited the re­turn of his brother Martin to Munich, and they fled from Salzburg airport. The airport had not been destroyed and there were also at least ten flights from there of the Fuehrer’s mes­sengers with official documents. All aircraft were suitable for night and long distance flights." The bishop made the foregoing statement to prove that "Bormann had enough ways and means to flee Germany, and that the Vatican had not done anything special to help him. (p.15)

_____________________________


(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 230
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 9:20:16 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
MARTIN BORMANN: NAZI IN EXILE

By Paul Manning


The following excerpts are from the above book. These excerpts, based on classified documents, clearly show Bormann's organization of German industry for a post-WWII world.


The Strasbourg Conference August 10, 1944:

A transcript of that meeting is in my possession. It is a captured German document from the files of the U.S. Treasury Department, and states who was present and what was said, as the economy of the Third Reich was projected onto a postwar profit-seeking track.

Martin Bormann was now the leader in fact of Germany. Hitler, exhausted, drained of the charisma of the glory days of the thirties and the conquest years of the early forties, was going through the gestures of military leadership mechanically as his troops fell back on all fronts.

Martin Bormann, forty-one at the fall of Berlin, and strong as a bull, was at all times at Hitler's side, impassive and cool. His be-all and end-all was to guide Hitler, and now to make the decisions that would lead to the eventual rebirth of his country.

Hitler, his intuitions at peak level despite his crumbling physical and mental health in the last year of the Third Reich, realized this and approved of it. "Bury your treasure," he advised Bormann, "for you will need it to begin a Fourth Reich."

That is precisely what Bormann was about to do when he set in motion the "flight capital" scheme on August 10, 1944, in Strasbourg. The treasure, the golden ring, he envisioned for the new Germany was the sophisticated distribution of national and corporate assets to safe havens throughout the neutral nations of the rest of the world.

At the conference, Reichsleiter Bormann had added, "German industry must realize that the war cannot now be won, and must take steps to prepare for a postwar commercial campaign which will in time insure the economic resurgence of Germany."

Present were Dr. Kaspar representing Krupp, Dr. Tolle representing Röchling, Dr. Sinceren representing Messerschmitt, Drs. Kopp, Vier, and Beerwanger representing Rheinmetall, Captain Haberkorn and Dr. Ruhe representing Bussing, Drs. Ellenmayer and Kardos representing Volkswagenwerk, engineers Drose, Yanchew, and Koppshem representing various factories in Posen, Poland (Drose, Yanchew, & Co., Brown-Boveri, Herkuleswerke, Buschwerke, and Stadtwerke); Dr. Meyer, an official of the German Naval Ministry in Paris; and Dr. Strassner of the Ministry of Armament, Paris.

Dr. Scheid, papers from his briefcase arranged neatly on the table before him, stated that all industrial matériel in France was to be evacuated to Germany immediately. "The battle of France is lost to Germany," he admitted, quoting Reichsleiter Bormann as his authority, "and now the defense of the Siegfried Line (and Germany itself) is the main problem. . . . From now on, German industry must take steps in preparation for a post-war commercial campaign, with each industrial firm making new contacts and alliances with foreign firms. This must be done individually and without attracting any suspicion. However, the party and the Third Reich will stand behind every firm with permissive and financial support."

A smaller conference in the afternoon was presided over by Dr. Bosse of the German Armaments Ministry. It was attended only by representatives of Hecko, Krupp, and Röchling. Dr. Bosse restated Bormann's belief that the war was all but lost, but that it would be continued by Germany until certain goals to insure the economic resurgence of Germany after the war had been achieved. He added that German industrialists must be prepared to finance the continuation of the Nazi Party, which would be forced to go underground, just as had the Maquis in France.

"From now on, the government in Berlin will allocate large sums to industrialists so that each can establish a secure post-war foundation in foreign countries. Existing financial reserves in foreign countries must be placed at the disposal of the party in order that a strong German empire can be created after defeat. It is almost immediately required," he continued, "that the large factories in Germany establish small technical offices or research bureaus which will be absolutely independent and have no connection with the factory. These bureaus will receive plans and drawings of new weapons, as well as documents which they will need to continue their research. These special offices are to be established in large cities where security is better, although some might be formed in small villages near sources of hydroelectric power, where these party members can pretend to be studying the development of water resources for benefit of any Allied investigators."

From this day, German industrial firms of all rank were to begin placing their funds - and, wherever possible, key man-power -abroad, especially in neutral countries. Dr. Bosse advised that "two main banks can be used for the export of funds for firms who have made no prior arrangements: the Basler Handelsbank and the Schweizerische Kreditanstalt of Zurich." He also stated, "There are a number of agencies in Switzerland which for a five percent commission will buy property in Switzerland for German firms, using Swiss cloaks."

Dr. Bosse closed the meeting, observing that "after the defeat of Germany, the Nazi Party recognizes that certain of its best kown leaders will be condemned as war criminals. However, in cooperation with the industrialists, it is arranging to place its less conspicuous but most important members with various German factories as technical experts or members of its research and designing offices." (pp. 23-29)

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 7:31:26 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 231
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 9:40:26 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
For those who are interested, here is a link that shows how German industrialists organized in 1933 to help rearm the German economy. All documents are based on War Crime Trial Transcripts.

On the invitation of the defendant Goering, approximately twenty-five of the leading industrialists of Germany, and the defendant Schacht, attended a meeting in Berlin on the 20th day of February, 1933. This was shortly before the election of 5th March, 1933, in Germany. At this meeting Hitler announced the conspirators' aim to seize totalitarian control over Germany, to destroy the parliamentary system, to crush all opposition by force, and to restore the power of the Wehrmacht.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-01/tgmwc-01-04-04.html

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 7:41:36 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 232
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:48:00 PM   
VicKevlar

 

Posts: 881
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline
Apparently.......nothing was learned earlier. Next step....suspension of users.

_____________________________

The infantry doesn't change. We're the only arm of the military where the weapon is the man himself.

C. T. Shortis


(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 233
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 6 7 [8]
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 7 [8]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.219