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political points? - 2/20/2004 8:44:42 AM   
pad152

 

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Are political points use to move ships/fleets between commands? or just for troops / airgroups.
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RE: political points? - 2/20/2004 9:35:03 AM   
Drongo

 

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PP's are used to pay for the transferring of airgroups, land units and bases from one command to another. They are also used to replace leaders.

Ships/TFs are currently not affected as they do not "belong" to any Command HQs. They are the game's free spirits.

< Message edited by Drongo -- 2/20/2004 7:37:27 AM >


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RE: political points? - 2/20/2004 4:35:54 PM   
Brady


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Then why did Kid mention neading to spend PP's to retain the British Fleat in the Far east?

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RE: political points? - 2/20/2004 5:25:25 PM   
Bulldog61


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When a Britsh ship is required to withdraw you can withdraw the ship or expend PP's to retain it.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 12:18:58 AM   
pad152

 

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quote:

When a Britsh ship is required to withdraw you can withdraw the ship or expend PP's to retain it.


Good, looks like a good solution to the British fleet issue, just save your PP's before using the British fleet.
Now the player has some control of the problem

Question is withdraw request based on individual ships or amount of ship points ( X number of ships)?

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 12:35:35 AM   
pasternakski


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I absolutely hate this. Control of Royal Navy strategic fleet assignments should be outside the player's control in this game.

The ships are withdrawn, on order of the Admiralty, to meet Allied naval asset needs in other theaters, particularly the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean. What are British forces there supposed to do in order to accomplish their tasks and goals? Throw political points at the enemy?

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 12:49:40 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Well one could say you use your PP to persude the higher ups that you need the ships more.
It takes a lot of PP to keep the fleet. The ALlied player will be PP short for the first year or so since he has so many demands for them. In order to move airgroups out of SRA PP, relocate landunits PP, assign/change TF leaders PP, change ground unit or air group leader PP, change controlling HQ of base PP. I think the withdrawl orders will be met or a PP penelty paid but unless you have a good reason for keeping a ship it is much better to make sure it exits on time.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 1:09:33 AM   
pasternakski


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So where do you get these "argumentative PPs?" Either you can persuade Winny and First Sea Lord or you can't. Again, I think the decision is properly outside the player's control. You play the hand you're dealt. The game should tell you when ships are going to be withdrawn, and, for those who think this would be a convenient excuse to take them out and lose them, remember the VPs and that the game should require substitute withdrawals if ships to be withdrawn are lost. If no substitutes are available, the penalty should be in VPs - the only kind of "point" I think ought to be relevant in a game that squares one strategic military commander off against another.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 1:10:43 AM   
mogami


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Hi, The game does not order ships withdrawn by name. It orders withdrawls by type.
"Withdraw 1 BB 1 CL and 4 DD"

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 4:09:24 AM   
Raverdave


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The PP system is one of the best features I have yet seen in any wargame, and it effects BOTH players ! Relax Pasternakski ......you will soon get your chance to see it working in the "flesh" and THAT will be in your first PBEM game with me. I am gona kick your Red meatball arse!

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Post #: 10
RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 4:40:19 AM   
pasternakski


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Sphincter says what?

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 5:28:48 AM   
siRkid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

So where do you get these "argumentative PPs?" Either you can persuade Winny and First Sea Lord or you can't. Again, I think the decision is properly outside the player's control. You play the hand you're dealt. The game should tell you when ships are going to be withdrawn, and, for those who think this would be a convenient excuse to take them out and lose them, remember the VPs and that the game should require substitute withdrawals if ships to be withdrawn are lost. If no substitutes are available, the penalty should be in VPs - the only kind of "point" I think ought to be relevant in a game that squares one strategic military commander off against another.


The PP British withdraw system was developed to add realism into the game. Let me ask how you would solve the following problems when it is time to withdraw a ship.

The TF the BB that is ordered to withdraw is in is making a decisive move on an enemy invasion fleet. Does it just pop off the board leaving the player hanging out in the cold?

Does the AI take control and move it to an exit point? Do you want the AI just seizing control of your ships in the middle of the game?

What if it gets sunk before it exits? Does it still meet the withdraw requirement?

What if three of the ships scheduled to withdraw make up the better part of a TF defending a critical point and half your fleet pops off the board?

If you make the player move the ship off the board, how do you ensure he moves it off in an efficient manner? How do you penalize him for not moving it off?

Most of the decisions we make are not just added in on a whim. There is a lot of thought that goes into each one. We feel that the PP system is the best way to handle the above issues and many more that I did not list when dealing with the British withdraw problem.

Hope this helps,
Kid

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 5:32:21 AM   
denisonh


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As a Theatre Commander, you have to pick and choose your battles. PPs depict this in my mind. As a subordinate, you can expend only so much "credibility" on issues with you boss.

My experience in the military seems to confirm this, as my time as unit commander made me take in account I couldn't win every argument with my commander (despite being right), but I had to "pick" my battles.

I could influence my boss expending the appropriate effort, keeping in mind that I had to choose carefully when, how, and how often I did so.

Damn Pasternakski, relax. (Are you expending PPs to get rid of PPs?)

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 5:58:13 AM   
pasternakski


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My post anticipates and answers these questions (and now that I have won the election, I AM the people, and I'm always right, and I never lie).

"Notice" of withdrawal is one key that I mentioned. You get orders that HMS Black Pudding is to be withdrawn by such-and-such a date. You can't pull any cheeky strokes, because the VP controls make it unprofitable. You do have the allotted time prior to the withdrawal to have the ship complete its mission, then return to the port from which it will be withdrawn (to face eventual sinking by U-Boat or aerial radio-controlled bomb, or whatever, while participating in a campaign in UV MED, D@MMIT!). Finally, if you have failed to return the ship to its exit point, yes, it does "teleport" out of the game, and, if you have succeeded in getting it sunk, a replacement is designated - by the game, not by you - and you again have a compliance date before you.

I am not being militant about this (but be careful getting on airplanes or ascending to the top floors of skyscrapers), for one thing because I realize that the decision has long since been made on political points, but ... but ... but ... let's see, what was it I hoped to accomplish?

Oh, yeah - to express my opinion that political points are not a feature I would like to see in the game. Any more than I would like to see Vals carrying 250 kg bombs at the same time as 60 kg bomblets...

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Put my faith in the people
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So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 6:16:40 AM   
denisonh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

My post anticipates and answers these questions (and now that I have won the election, I AM the people, and I'm always right, and I never lie).

"Notice" of withdrawal is one key that I mentioned. You get orders that HMS Black Pudding is to be withdrawn by such-and-such a date. You can't pull any cheeky strokes, because the VP controls make it unprofitable. You do have the allotted time prior to the withdrawal to have the ship complete its mission, then return to the port from which it will be withdrawn (to face eventual sinking by U-Boat or aerial radio-controlled bomb, or whatever, while participating in a campaign in UV MED, D@MMIT!). Finally, if you have failed to return the ship to its exit point, yes, it does "teleport" out of the game, and, if you have succeeded in getting it sunk, a replacement is designated - by the game, not by you - and you again have a compliance date before you.

I am not being militant about this (but be careful getting on airplanes or ascending to the top floors of skyscrapers), for one thing because I realize that the decision has long since been made on political points, but ... but ... but ... let's see, what was it I hoped to accomplish?

Oh, yeah - to express my opinion that political points are not a feature I would like to see in the game. Any more than I would like to see Vals carrying 250 kg bombs at the same time as 60 kg bomblets...


Hmmm, advocating " teleporting ships"? Wow, that's realistic.

Once again, as the theater commander, the "Admiralty" needs some capability based on events happening out of your theatre (like in the Med for example) and has tasked you to provide something.

As a competent commander with the trust of the Crown, you argue your case to the Admiralty. If you have the HMS Black Pudding decisively engaged in an operation, but the HMS Cheeseball is available, why not substitute? More importantly, if the HMS Black Pudding is limping back to Karachi with 80 sys damage, why would the Admiralty want her anyway?

Why should the AI in its infinite wisdom make the decision without input from the theatre commander (Are you the official protector and endorser of the AI?)

There has to be a way to balance the player have unreal "political" capability with a commander's way of influencing strategic decision making (Hmmm, did Nimitz and King ever meet to discuss the war, and more importantly, effect Nimitz affect his decision making? I believe that to be the case)

[Drunk and Dyslexic is no way to go through life, but what choice do I have?]

< Message edited by denisonh -- 2/22/2004 11:22:50 PM >


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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 7:16:49 AM   
pasternakski


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Nah, not "teleporting ships," but ships that become, as of the date of their withdrawal, someone else's to command (they need not be depicted on the map).

I am no apologist for the artificial stupidity. There needs be nothing more built into the game than a fairly regularized withdrawal (and, for that matter, re-assignment back into the theater) schedule).

Besides, HMS Black Pudding was far more witty than HMS Cheeseball. Everybody knows it where I come from.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 7:37:11 AM   
denisonh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Nah, not "teleporting ships," but ships that become, as of the date of their withdrawal, someone else's to command (they need not be depicted on the map).

I am no apologist for the artificial stupidity. There needs be nothing more built into the game than a fairly regularized withdrawal (and, for that matter, re-assignment back into the theater) schedule).

Besides, HMS Black Pudding was far more witty than HMS Cheeseball. Everybody knows it where I come from.


I guess it would be like hardcoding withdrawls from the Med for D-Day, even though the situation in the Med would not favor a or require a D-Day.

Something to look forward to in UV Med.

Hey, with HMS Black Pudding already taken, my choices were marginal

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 7:50:52 AM   
pasternakski


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Well, all in all, it's a difficult thing to figure out how to handle (RN ship withdrawals, not being witty, something I've never figured out). Mein kampf ist - er, umm, my plan is - to leave the poor dam*ed blarsted bug*ered designers to figure it out as best they can and design it so that I can buy it and come back here to criticize the he11 out of it.

"Political points?" Maybe "reassignment points" or "command points" would have been better. Oh, well.

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Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 8:28:55 AM   
pad152

 

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quote:

Does the AI take control and move it to an exit point? Do you want the AI just seizing control of your ships in the middle of the game?


Speaking of teleporting ships, that's exactly what happened in PacWar! Ships would just disapear from your task force in the middle of an operation. You could never ever trust using the Bristish fleet because of this.

I think this PP method is the second best feature, next to including float planes on subs.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 3:29:21 PM   
Rainerle

 

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How much damage may a ship have to be sent away ?

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 5:31:24 PM   
TIMJOT

 

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Pasternanski, If you hard code mandatory historic unit withdrawls, How would you account for non-historic moves in the game? Example; If your opponent is marching on Bombay and sailing toward Karachi. Is it an unreasonable possibility that Torch is delayed in order to meet the crisis. For sure there should be a price to pay (ie;PPs) but one should not have to be bound by historical hancuffs unless your opponent is as well. IMO PPs seem to be a good compromise.

Regards

< Message edited by TIMJOT -- 2/23/2004 3:37:10 PM >

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 5:49:12 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

How much damage may a ship have to be sent away ?


That's a very good question. If someone sends back a BB that is 80% damaged it should only fulfill 1/5 of the BB requirement. Some allowance should be made for the first 10% of damage or so since that can occur just from running around even without combat.

Maybe take the % damage and charge the player that same percentage of PP that he would have had to pay to keep the ship.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 6:57:58 PM   
siRkid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

How much damage may a ship have to be sent away ?


That's a very good question. If someone sends back a BB that is 80% damaged it should only fulfill 1/5 of the BB requirement. Some allowance should be made for the first 10% of damage or so since that can occur just from running around even without combat.

Maybe take the % damage and charge the player that same percentage of PP that he would have had to pay to keep the ship.


These are valid points and I will look into them.

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RE: political points? - 2/23/2004 10:52:59 PM   
hUMan bULLet

 

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This kinda gets back to my damage post I made. This would mean that I would not even want to send any of my ships out to sea, for I know that if it takes damage ( of which I am sure it will just from sailing a few hexes). This would be a horrible situation. You can't even risk losing anything cuz of the VPs, and it would make you not want to even move your ships due to the fear of accumulating incidental system damage. Even if it's a few points, I feel its kinda dumb.

If anything, it should be implemented ONLY IF THE SHIP IS HEAVILY DAMAGED.

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RE: political points? - 2/24/2004 12:05:37 AM   
HMSWarspite

 

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I think the system as described (ship withdrawls by type, pay PP to override) is a very good system, and simulates that options and constraints on a historical commander. Remember, PP are effectively a hybrid. They represent a mix of straight 'politicing' (to persuade the Powers That Be that your reorganisation/need to keep a ship, or whatever is great enough to revise their plans), and also the staff effort in organising a move etc. The great weakness with the historical withdrawls system is the lack of any account of what is happening, and the players plans. What admiral in history ever planned along the lines of 'HMS Impossible gets withdrawn in 2 weeks, so I will use her on a death ride', or worse 'HMS Impossible, please teleport from the South China sea to the Med soonest'? The reality is something much more like

Admiraly to CinC Far East. HMS Impossible to detatch you command 25/12/43 to CinC Med.

CiC Far East to Admiralty. HMS Impossible currently deployed and essential to operation Chariot, suggest HMS Improbable substitutes

or

Strategic situation critical, cannot release ships until .... (etc)

The latter option may lose you credibilty with the boss, and make them less likely to grant your next wish (i.e.lose PP). As a game mechanic, it penalises you by limiting other options. Thus, if you are not despirate you wont pay, and if you are, you have an option (at the expense of paying!)

I have pre-ordained withdrawl, or random teleport. I guess you could do non-negotiable random warning of withdrawl, but you could then get in to the ludricous
situation of the only BB (say) in theatre being withdrawn, when there is no way it would have been historically. Having a say is in no way beyond the scope of CinC Far East (which is what the British post is effectively)

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RE: political points? - 2/24/2004 3:04:17 AM   
pasternakski


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Look, I hate to get serious, but you people have not been listening. So let me spell it out in simple terms (and, before I start, let me acknowledge that PPs are part and parcel of WitP and nothing I say here will have any effect):

1. I am merely saying that VPs, not some artificial system of another kind of points, ought to govern this game mechanic.
2. I do not believe that "political points" are the answer.
3. My idea is that a basic system of RN ship withdrawals ought to be built in that notifies the player of impending ship withdrawals. It is then the Allied player's responsibility to get those ships to their departure port or ports. This system should randomize, to some extent, the need for ship withdrawals, both by type and by number, in order to account for changing needs of other theaters for RN support of combat operations.
4. If the situation in theater is such that the ships ought to be retained in order to stave off defeat, the notification of withdrawal should not appear in the first place (capture of _______ causes cancellation of withdrawal orders for ships ____, ____, ____, and ____; VP deficiency of X points causes cancellation of withdrawal orders for ships ____, ____, ____, and ____. And so on).
5. Deliberate loss of ships ordered to be withdrawn or failure to move them to the port or ports of withdrawal should result in loss of VPs and immediate removal of the ships in question.

I hate to see artificial constructs like PPs conjured up to govern game play. I guess I can live with it for transfer of units from command to command (but I still dislike the term "political points," as such transfer is not a "political" matter, but rather, a "military" or "command" matter).

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 2/23/2004 8:10:06 PM >


_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 26
RE: political points? - 2/24/2004 4:47:03 AM   
denisonh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Look, I hate to get serious, but you people have not been listening. So let me spell it out in simple terms (and, before I start, let me acknowledge that PPs are part and parcel of WitP and nothing I say here will have any effect):

1. I am merely saying that VPs, not some artificial system of another kind of points, ought to govern this game mechanic.
2. I do not believe that "political points" are the answer.
3. My idea is that a basic system of RN ship withdrawals ought to be built in that notifies the player of impending ship withdrawals. It is then the Allied player's responsibility to get those ships to their departure port or ports. This system should randomize, to some extent, the need for ship withdrawals, both by type and by number, in order to account for changing needs of other theaters for RN support of combat operations.
4. If the situation in theater is such that the ships ought to be retained in order to stave off defeat, the notification of withdrawal should not appear in the first place (capture of _______ causes cancellation of withdrawal orders for ships ____, ____, ____, and ____; VP deficiency of X points causes cancellation of withdrawal orders for ships ____, ____, ____, and ____. And so on).
5. Deliberate loss of ships ordered to be withdrawn or failure to move them to the port or ports of withdrawal should result in loss of VPs and immediate removal of the ships in question.

I hate to see artificial constructs like PPs conjured up to govern game play. I guess I can live with it for transfer of units from command to command (but I still dislike the term "political points," as such transfer is not a "political" matter, but rather, a "military" or "command" matter).


So a complicated, hard coded system that is as much an "artificial construct" is somehow better than "political points" or "command points"? Without linkage of the current military situation to the withdrawls (Programming the hardcoding and getting it right would be a nightmare and a time sink), these "arbitrary" removals make little sense.

I think there may be more important matters that generate a better return for the programmers than going too deeply beyond PPs. This is a good abstraction for addressing the issue.

Like Marshal Zukhov once said "perfect is the enemy of good enough."

.

_____________________________


"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

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Post #: 27
RE: political points? - 2/24/2004 6:19:27 PM   
pasternakski


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I don't see what I suggest as being anywhere near as complicated as the PP system, but enough on the subject, because my ideas are going nowhere.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to denisonh)
Post #: 28
RE: political points? - 4/12/2021 1:52:02 AM   
Mower


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The manual says next to NOTHING about PP...where can I find information please?

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