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RE: Designing tips required

 
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RE: Designing tips required - 2/24/2004 5:24:28 PM   
william19k


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quote:

BTW, like I said in the post I referenced, this is all in the manual. Page 13 of the printed version, 15 in the pdf version.


Agreed the general ideas are in the manual, but the manual doesnt go into the details of why you may want V in the head instead of Dullaroy, in fact on page 14 of the prited manual it says Dullaroy is the best option for the head. Your above explanation on your reason for chosing V has made me change one of my designes already since I had a bit of extra armor in the head and removing it wouldnt let me do anything else with the weight, but by changing it to V, I can use that extra weight.

Plus I dont think the manual had this tip:
quote:

Tip about "surplus" mms. When you finished adding armor to the design, choose 'all locations', then 'remove 1mm'. Those locations whose *AP* numbers decrease are already minimized. 'add 1mm' again to undo the changes, and fix only the locations that didn't decrease APs.


Which is an awsome tip that has helped me out greatly. The detail that some of you guys go into here is what is so helpful.

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/24/2004 7:52:46 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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Those are all "tricks", and as such not in the manual. You eventually find them out by fiddling in the factory. If you consider armor weight and space usage, it'll come naturally. Want to save weight, use V. Want max protection, use D. Space is limited, use T. Want good heat dissiaption, use M. Simple.
D is *usually* the best option for the head. Like I said, only in very rare situations do *I* consider using V. Many people here will never consider anything other than D for the head, some good designers.
The shaving off of unneeded mms, that one you learn with experience. I've been using that one for years, and saved me a lot of time streamlining the database. One additional effect, generally disregarded, is that it may make the design slightly cheaper if you cannot find anything to spend that weight on. Couple hundred bucks or so. money nevertheless

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Iceman

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/24/2004 8:14:19 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: william19k

Also I posted that having a good battle computer is better than having a good scanner. I based this assumption on statements made in the "Option for less information" thread on the main ToS board. I believe Rosary and Thorgrim pointed out several benefits of a good battlecomputer over a good scanner there. I am not sure how to post a link to a thread or I would do it here. So If you are debating on getting the level 6 scanner or the level 6 battle computer, go with the computer. If its one or the other. (Please correct me if I am wrong on this)


Missed one there

The choice between a BC 6 and a scanner 6, it's not that linear. Depends, before anything else, what you're choosing between. If it's between a BC 1 / scanner 6 and BC 6 / scanner 1, definitely. But if it's for example BC 5 / scanner 6 and BC 6 / scanner 5, not so fast! A BC 6 in relation to a BC 5 adds 2% to your to hit, and makes locking a little faster. A scanner 6 in relation to a 5 now gives you more range (+1 hex opt and max), +1m VH, +5% to active scans and faster scan times. So, it's another game altogether
You have to consider your weapons' reload times, and your jock's skills. Support titans have longer reload times, so a slower scanner won't hurt them much. But energy titans reload fast, so a state-of-the-art scanner is probably better. If your jock has a very good scanner skill, he may not need a very fast scanner, and could use a better computer. Trade-offs.
Same deal for DCS, but not so important there.
When choosing your titan's weapons, reload times of the weapons should be an important factor. Mainly because of scan times.

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/24/2004 9:13:39 PM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thorgrim
(BTW, I don't personally agree with the always part)


Just for the record I didn't say always... I said 99.9%

Yes, Iceman you've made a good case and although I still don't I agree with it, it's a logical argument and within the range of 'designer's call' IMO. I make sure I never answer that question as always

< Message edited by Sleeping_Dragon -- 2/24/2004 2:23:58 PM >


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RE: Designing tips required - 2/24/2004 9:29:09 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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I was trying to find the post where you said always, but couldn't. Damn hacker...
So, if it's 99.9%, when do you not use D?

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 12:37:59 AM   
william19k


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quote:

Those are all "tricks", and as such not in the manual.


Isn't that what this thread is all about? Title of thread is "Designing tips Required"

quote:

Missed one there


Ok fixed it

quote:

Just for the record I didn't say always... I said 99.9%


Once again it seems I misquoted, but I was going off of memory sorry If this lead to confusion.

But, I do think that all of your posts are full of good info for people who are having trouble with designing as I was. Keep those tips and tricks coming.

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William19k

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 1:37:27 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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No problem with the misquote william 19k. I wasn't even sure if I had posted that tid-bit about Dul on the head, but once you mentioned it. I remembered typing in 99.9% instead of always with Iceman in mind.

I always use max AP in Dularoy on the head (so for me... it is always) actually it's one of the first things I do, since for me it's a givien. However, there are a few situations (like Iceman discribed) where Vicnium is a close call. For me it's not quite close enough, other designer's are free to make the judgement that it is close enough and have a reasonable justification for it.

For me... my jocks will take every single AP they can get... I've walked away from too many battles with only 1 AP (internal+external) left in the head.... titans don't need sunroofs

< Message edited by Sleeping_Dragon -- 2/24/2004 6:45:47 PM >


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Post #: 37
RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 2:13:28 AM   
Thorgrim

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: william19k

quote:

Those are all "tricks", and as such not in the manual.


Isn't that what this thread is all about? Title of thread is "Designing tips Required"


yep, that's why they're in here and not in the manual

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Iceman

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 2:16:08 AM   
william19k


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I actually liked several things Thorgrim said about head armor. I have a titan, actually one with the armor scheme I posted above, where after shaving AP here and there I found myself with 1mm of D extra in the head. Due to other factors, like limited slots and other weight factors, I couldn't really do anything with the weight saved by "shaving" that 1mm. Using a different type of armor I could probably make the weight saved into something useful.

Then I read what he posted about just leaving it off to save on titan cost. Now to you veterans this might have seemed odvious, but to me it was something I hadn't thought about when designing titans.

So actually both ideas were quite helpful. BTW I chose to stick to D and leave the titan a bit lighter than before.

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William19k

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 2:18:08 AM   
Thorgrim

 

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So, considering that if the engine blows your jock dies, shouldn't you *always* have your engine location maxed out?

BTW, 99.9%, that's 1 in every 1000. Is that designs, or recons (that's where this applies)? I think it's a "little" more than that... either way. IMO.

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 2:26:15 AM   
Thorgrim

 

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Notice that each location has a size factor. So adding 1mm in the LOT for example will take less weight than adding 1mm in the CT. The location sizes are in the guide. So sometimes you may not be able to add that mm to the CT, but it might fit in the LOT. The LOT is the smallest location next to the head.

Oh, and fortunately armor repairs are relative to APs and not mms, so those unused mms could be costing you a lot over time

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 4:36:51 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thorgrim

So, considering that if the engine blows your jock dies, shouldn't you *always* have your engine location maxed out?


Are you baiting me?... I believe you are

Well.. I'll bite

The maxed out armor over the engine isn't a good rule-of-thumb because here you're starting to talk about a CONSIDERABLE amount of tonnage. On a recon the tonnage differnence between a 'normally' armored engine location and a maxed out engine location is probably in the 1.0 - 1.5 ton range (quick guestimate) That's alot. You spend that much wieght maximizing APs over the engine and you'll start having noticable defficences in other areas that in the long run that could cause you more defeats and jock deaths then a weaker armored engine would ever have.

The 'general rule' for the head armor works because in recons the wieght difference between a Vincinium head and a Dularoy head is what.. 0.1-0.2 tons. Not a huge deal.. that little of an amount of wieght shouldn't cause noticable faliure in a design. So, if I can move around that small of an amount of wieght and it not significanly effect the design... may as well put it where it could prevent to most 'guarenteed' damage (no head = dead jock), Heck, your engine might not explode... yea right . Also with the engine location armor... it will have more total APs then the head (almost always, but when it don't there will be other 'protections' like engine in the CBT) and you'll be more likely to have more time to see the hole forming and react and plan accordingly.


quote:


BTW, 99.9%, that's 1 in every 1000. Is that designs, or recons (that's where this applies)? I think it's a "little" more than that... either way. IMO.


Alright I'll give you that, maybe 99%

< Message edited by Sleeping_Dragon -- 2/24/2004 9:47:38 PM >


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Post #: 42
RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 4:56:52 AM   
Sleeping_Dragon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thorgrim

Notice that each location has a size factor. So adding 1mm in the LOT for example will take less weight than adding 1mm in the CT. The location sizes are in the guide. So sometimes you may not be able to add that mm to the CT, but it might fit in the LOT. The LOT is the smallest location next to the head.



This is very important! It especially comes into play with titans with large HRs and heat reducing armors. Say you have a titan with HRs all over the place, but only have enough 'free wieght' to put 'heat-friendly' armor over 2 locations. As far as heat disappation calculations are concerned it don't matter which 2 locations, you'll get the same improved heat dissipation rate. Wieght-wise it's a whole 'nother story! 30AP of armor for the LoT wieghts ALOT less then 30APs in the CT. So if you're going to use a heat-friendly armor (that wieghts more) you want to use it on the area that takes less to start with. It can save you quite a bit of wieght.

Example:
LoT= 30APS = 2 tons 'normal' armor (numbers aren't right but it makes math easiler)
CT = 30APS = 4 tons 'normal' armor

heat friendly armor wieght 25% more then 'normal' armor

so for the LoT 2.5 tons for heat-friendly armor
for the CT 5.0 tons for heat-friendly armor

If you can only change one of these 2 locations to heat friendly armor then you'd want to change the LoT since it only increased the wieght by 0.5 tones whereas if you would have changed the CT it would have increased your used wieght by 1.0 tons. Don't matter which one you change as far as the actual heat reduction benefit goes.. but the wieght makes a big difference.

There are ALOT of things that have to be taken into account when thinking about this like limitations on # of slots, armor bulkiness, and different APs at the locations your looking at changing to the new armor. GENERALY speaking (and there are ALOT of exceptions). start using heat efficent armors in the CBT, then the LoT, then the Legs, Arms, L and R torsos, then the CT last. Just remember that there has to be a HR in the location your thinking about using heat efficent armor on, don't do no good to put Millinia in the CBT when there isn't a HR there! The reason you see alot of titans use Millinia on the legs is that it's fairly high up on the list and ALL titans have HRs in the legs.



OK... those 2 post took a while to write....... my luck and they will have disappeared by tommorow morning

< Message edited by Sleeping_Dragon -- 2/24/2004 10:20:57 PM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 7:39:02 AM   
william19k


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quote:

Oh, and fortunately armor repairs are relative to APs and not mms, so those unused mms could be costing you a lot over time


Not sure I understand this, wouldn't those unused mms be saving you money since you wouldn't have to pay to repair them? Or are you saying that the mms that don't actually grant you any extra AP are costing you more money in repairs?

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William19k

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Post #: 44
RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 12:29:44 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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I'm saying that fortunately they are not
The formula for calculating armor repair costs uses APs, not mms. So, even if you have excess mms, they won't be counted for repairs. They probably should, but they aren't. Hence, fortunately

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 12:44:11 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sleeping_Dragon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thorgrim

So, considering that if the engine blows your jock dies, shouldn't you *always* have your engine location maxed out?


Are you baiting me?... I believe you are

Well.. I'll bite


Yep, I am.

I'm also talking about close-by engine explosions, and 'damage titan' mission events, and charge damage, etc, where damage can really pile up on the CT (in big lumps) contrary to the HD (3x as often).
But this is all academic. In the battlefield, all calculations go down the drain

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Post #: 46
RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 12:48:24 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sleeping_Dragon

As far as heat disappation calculations are concerned it don't matter which 2 locations, you'll get the same improved heat dissipation rate.


I was hoping Kai would have had the time to implement location mods to heat dissipation too, but unfortunately that was not possible. Maybe someday.

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RE: Designing tips required - 2/25/2004 4:34:12 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sleeping_Dragon

For me... my jocks will take every single AP they can get... I've walked away from too many battles with only 1 AP (internal+external) left in the head.... titans don't need sunroofs


Where... did... those... techs... put... that... damn... red... button?!


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Post #: 48
RE: Designing tips required - 5/19/2004 5:37:05 PM   
Mordred

 

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Talking about heads, i read life support belongs into the head. However you can fit it to different locations. How will that affect performance or what dangers will result from this if i fit it somwhere else ?

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RE: Designing tips required - 5/19/2004 6:50:06 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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It's usually put in the head because it's the location with the lowest chance to be hit on a titan. That's 5%, as opposed to 15% for CT/CBT (depending on the facing of the target relative to the attacker), and 13% for the side torsos. Damage to the LS may result in nasty effects for the jock, hence trying to shield it as much as possible. It's not just the destruction of the bodypart that one must keep in mind, but also internal damage from either concussion or mesons. Other than that, no other effect.

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RE: Designing tips required - 5/19/2004 10:33:46 PM   
Coyote27


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Random notes of no particular relevancy, and probably already stated earlier in the thread....


It's generally not a good idea to mount flamethrowers in the head, especially when facing mesons.

If I am using a small engine I prefer to put it in the CBT, mainly because meson damage to the engine can cost you the game with one shot. That and it's not as likely to get holes burned through it by plasma guns while you're dodging into range. Unless you try dodging through quicksand anyway :D

< Message edited by Coyote27 -- 5/19/2004 12:30:09 PM >


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