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Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 11:15:14 AM   
stjeand


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Okay so I am in my second game with Russian rail at 2...
I believe it helps though still not sure if it is enough...

So other thoughts to discuss.

1) Changing rail repair to 1 in Cold, Rain and Snow. Can't do this in the editor so no way to test it. I think it would have to be hard coded.

2) More Reserve armies as ncc stated elsewhere so that the Russians get 3 per turn instead of two...so maybe 50% more.

3) Allowing the Russians to actually fight the winter war. I have been trying to figure this out but it does not look possible in the current engine. But this would get some of the Russian units stronger and help with experience.

4) Russian divisions. I have read a LOT of Eastern Front data and the Russians used divisions all over, just like everyone else. My only worry would be Russian division spam. Divisions 8 deep as you go into Russia...yes this would slow down the Germans and exhaust them but not sure if it would work. Maybe only allow them with their early units the small corps?

5) Cold turns are a backbreaker for the USSR especially in 1941. Yes they are rarer but there don't seem to be any ill effect. After rain when the cold came...equipment was frozen to the ground and unable to be moved. In my current game the Germans got a cold turn in each of the fronts. So mid November still on the move. I think armor / mech in cold should have their movement halved. Both sides had a LOT of issues when the weather was freezing with their engines. OR perhaps only effect non-winterized countries.

6) Frostbite. Perhaps in cold / blizzard turns there is a chance for unit damage. Both sides lost a LOT of men due to frostbite, obviously the Germans more but still...the chances could be similar to an attack by an air unit doing damage or even half of that. Maybe the winterized countries take half the damage.


Just some thoughts from an old wargamer.
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RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 3:39:28 PM   
AstroBlues

 

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In a Magazine called Strategy and Tactics by Decision Games I read where German civilians handled the RailRoad conversion in the Soviet Union. Around the Holdays they all went home. That was the reason Ammucition, food, supplies did not reach the German Armies at the front.

Possible Raid Repair needs to be stopped in Novemeber.

Ron

(in reply to stjeand)
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RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 6:13:21 PM   
ncc1701e


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Thanks for your feedback stjeand. What I am interested in:

Did you save Leningrad and Moscow in 1941?
Did you perform any counterattacks in winter 1941?
Were you destroyed in 1942? in which month ?

Thanks a lot


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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 7:32:25 PM   
stjeand


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Well in my defense against Harry...

Yes I saved Moscow but lost Leningrad. WE are also playing with the adjusted rules that put Leningrad out of supply corrected, as best we can.
Basically the hexes with the water bridge need to be in supply.

Harry and I just played up till Winter 41 to see how it went...the Russians were gone. I had no troops for a counter attack.
Again I am NOT a good Russian player. I have yet to figure out how to play them well against a superior opponent.

Russia would have held out till 43 I figure at best...maybe longer in the Urals but would never be able to be used again.


In my current games...weather was far to much in my favor.

As the Germans I took Leningrad and got to the doors of Stalingrad, leaving Moscow for the winter.
Not sure Russia has forces for a counter attack...my opponent went heavy tank and I destroyed most of them.
Russia should be lost in 43 I figure though could falls sooner.
I will let you know soon.

As the Russians my opponent is out of steam and did not get past Riga so Leningrad is fine...in the south at Kiev...in the Center no where near Moscow.

I believe my opponent is less skilled than I so it may not be a fair comparison.
This is in NO way meant to be an insult just my observation.

Sadly I have not found another player in the sweet spot of equivalent skill.

But I don't play all that many games anymore so...

< Message edited by stjeand -- 12/2/2021 7:34:55 PM >

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RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 7:45:39 PM   
ncc1701e


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For what it's worth, I will keep saying Russia needs more troops. The list is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_armies

Historically, 12 Infantry armies in 1939 that should be on map.
Historically, 40 armies that were formed from June 1941 to December 1941 and that should be in Deployment queue.

Considering how easy it is to push them out, I wonder if we should not stick to those numbers.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 5
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 7:48:51 PM   
ncc1701e


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My Case Blue. I have splitted my armies into half armies in Caucasus to try to hold a line.




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_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 6
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 7:49:49 PM   
ncc1701e


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But... I am not powerful enough to hold anything. And, I have no more armies in reserve.




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_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 7
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 7:51:24 PM   
ncc1701e


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This time, this is really Game Over. I think USSR production is also a problem. I am doing some research on this right now.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 8
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 7:54:01 PM   
ncc1701e


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And you know what is funny. In Europe 1939 scenario, USSR has 2 infantry armies.




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_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 9
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 7:58:46 PM   
ncc1701e


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And, in Europe 1941 scenario, USSR has 8 infantry armies. How is it possible since USSR can't buy any infantry army prior to the launch of Barbarossa?

And, of course, in Europe 1941 scenario, there are 25 reserve armies in the Deployment queue, the same amount than in Europe 1939 scenario. So a difference of 6 infantry armies between the two scenarios. Hmmm....




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 10
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 9:05:34 PM   
generalfdog

 

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I have to disagree with continuing to reduce rail repair rates. Do you guys think Germany needs slowed down in 41? normally unless playing a far better player I find 41 to be about right, keep in mind Germany capturing Leningrad, and or Moscow in 41 was very conceivable. to me the bigger problem is winter 41-42 and summer of 42

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RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 9:30:12 PM   
AstroBlues

 

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I think it is in a Strategy and Tactics article by John Burtt that the first day on the German attack, Stalin ordered his men to counterattack. They did that instead of running. Germans Generals did not expect this. At the Battle of Smolensk, at Yelna, the Russian kept attacking and caused the German Army a lot of casualties. Many Historians are now saying the Smolensk counterattacks was the turning point in the Russo-German war. Not Stalingrad.

The attacks at Smolensk bleed the forces destined for Operation Typhoon. That is the reason the Germans did not take Moscow. Many game companies sent researchers over to Russia after Gorbachev dissolved the Soviet Union. They uncovered that the constant Counterattacks disrupted the advance. German Generals and Hitler thought the Russians men would lay down and die.

Hope that helps.

Ron

(in reply to generalfdog)
Post #: 12
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 9:38:45 PM   
ncc1701e


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My biggest problem is not 1941 but 1942. I would like a real Red Army to fight with and finally hold at the end of 1942. Germans have enough corps to hold all the front line from Leningrad to the Caucasus without using the minors (Italia, Romania, ...). And, USSR has barely enough armies to hold the same frontline without any possibility to have reserve to contain a breakthrough in their lines. This is my main complaint.

Check out When Titans Clashed:

Appendix A - Page 365
Composition of Opposing Forces, 22 June 1941

Appendix D - Page 370
Soviet Armies Mobilized in 1941

Appendix H - Page 375
Soviet Armies Mobilized or Redesignated in 1942


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AstroBlues)
Post #: 13
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/2/2021 9:46:53 PM   
ncc1701e


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Given the low experience (30%) and tech (Assault 1939) of the Soviet armies, Axis player will have no problem to push them in 1941. But, since there are more armies, they will take more casualties. And, more casualties mean more fightings. Thus, the Red Army will gain experience a little bit faster in 1941. Consequence is perhaps a more successful winter offensive in 1941. And second consequence, more Soviet reserve when German 1942 summer is coming. I don't think 1942 summer offensive could be blocked by the Russian. But, they can fight a delaying action until winter 1942. And then, they may counterattack.

This is how I see it. But I will surely have the answer that Warplan is not a simulation.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 14
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/3/2021 12:02:27 AM   
generalfdog

 

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ncc1701e I completely agree, the Germans did kick butt at first in 41 and again to a limited extent in 42 but the Germans NOT the Russians were the ones almost always operating without reserves, in the game you are right Russia feels like they are always on the brink of disaster operating without reserves, it needs to be flipped

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RE: Russia, yet again - 12/3/2021 12:09:23 AM   
generalfdog

 

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actually in the header to this forum it says it is a "ww2 simulation engine" but regardless I think we are all looking for a historical feel and historically achievable results. it is a game so part of the point is to be able to change history but since it isn't supposed to be fantasy, do so within the confines of plausibility

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RE: Russia, yet again - 12/3/2021 11:43:26 AM   
stjeand


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To try to respond to a lot above...

Russian OOB...keep in mind you are building units the whole time during 39 / 40 and early 41. I have maxed out their logistics in my current game in turn 1 of 1941. That means a LOT of units. Though not armies, units to slow the German advance.
Not sure it is enough I have not played this out against to many players yet...this is my first.
Perhaps the Russians could start building Armies in 41...THOUGH this might cause the player to start saving PP and making mass numbers of armies.
This will though cause a huge manpower issue...so would be interesting to see.
Easy enough to change if anyone wants to try it.


We just need to be careful upping the Russians to the point of Germany not having a chance.
DUE to the German High Command meddling the army never stuck to a plan and took locations they could have.
Could they have taken Moscow? Many texts say yes...but they diverted to many units south and failed so we never know...good thing too.
Would Russia have surrendered if Moscow fell? Maybe. Again good thing we do not know the answer.

Finding the sweet spot is really tough. Sadly right now it is weighed towards Germany.


Also keep in mind every time you toughen Russian you make it easier for the Allies.
I still feel they are powerful due to the player is able to build a mass ground army which will win every time.

But time will tell.

I can look into adding a few reserve armies for the Russians...though not sure I have control over when the arrive.
Thought could put in specific dates for that...so that you get 3 armies a turn after the first 4.

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Post #: 17
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/3/2021 1:52:35 PM   
ncc1701e


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Germans don't stand a chance as soon as they put a feet in USSR. But, for gameplay reason, I can understand they need to have a chance.
Don't get me wrong. My point right now is for USSR to get a chance to resist to an equally skilled German player in 1942.

Putting plenty of reserve infantry armies (30% experience, Assault 1939) won't hurt the Germans once, twice ... But the third time, they may come back with more experience due to casualties, and with Assault 1942 due to upgrade. And then, everything may change.

The problem is currently to evaluate how many reserve infantry armies is needed to achieve this. Or, how many PP is needed to achieve this. This is how I see things. Either we have more PP to build more armies, either we have already the reserve armies in the Deployment queue.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 18
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/3/2021 2:01:31 PM   
stjeand


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From: Aurora, NC
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What we need to do is actually create a scenario that starts in Jan 1941...with the USSR having all the points they would normally and able to build whatever they want and get back all the manpower.

Same for Germany but they also need to have their units on the map given experience.

Outside this I am not worried about the UK since this is a "test" for Russia.

Then we could modify that scenario to fit tests that we want to run...
Add reserves.
Slow rail repair.
Increase experience...


What I really wanted was to make Russia fight the winter war...but I do not think that is possible.
This would give them experience as well as the Fins.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 19
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/3/2021 2:26:34 PM   
ncc1701e


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Let's wait the next patch. The count can only be done on the next patch.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 20
RE: Russia, yet again - 12/24/2021 9:00:35 AM   
ncc1701e


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So, did anyone hit 1942 in a PBEM scenario starting from scratch with patch 1.00.15?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 21
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