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Position and release of 1 SS PzK

 
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Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/21/2021 10:05:39 PM   
Nico165b165


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Most sources and wargames I know place 1 and 12 SS PzD behind the first line composed of 277 VG - 12 VG - 3 FJ. Most of the time with rules to disallow movement in the first turn.

Here both divisions are already on the front line on round 1. Especially Peiper is positionned to the front of the 3 FJ. This makes a big difference on day 1. Historically, Peiper could not attack before dawn the 17th.

What is the reasoning behind this ?







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RE: Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/21/2021 11:46:12 PM   
timmyab

 

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I was wondering something similar about the Our river bridges near Hosingen. I believe these bridges were destroyed and weren't rebuilt until the end of the first day meaning pz Lehr couldn't participate on the 16th, causing significant delays to 57th pz corps.

(in reply to Nico165b165)
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RE: Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/26/2021 5:37:58 PM   
Genosse

 

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You each raise the two big questions that struck me about historical dispositions and the naturally delayed panzer advance due to frontage and road issues. The reason for Peiper sticking a battalion of Fallschirmjager on his panzers (which I was asking about in my thread) is he got to their lines on the 17th from his staging area and the paras hadn't created the decisive breakthrough he wanted!

Meanwhile, the German infantry infiltrating forward across the river while bridges are furiously built to their rear in the Skyline Drive sector is another great aesthetic of the beginning of the offensive.

Would be interesting for Davide to weigh in on whether gameplay compromises forced these choices.

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RE: Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/26/2021 5:49:10 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Genosse

You each raise the two big questions that struck me about historical dispositions and the naturally delayed panzer advance due to frontage and road issues. The reason for Peiper sticking a battalion of Fallschirmjager on his panzers (which I was asking about in my thread) is he got to their lines on the 17th from his staging area and the paras hadn't created the decisive breakthrough he wanted!

Meanwhile, the German infantry infiltrating forward across the river while bridges are furiously built to their rear in the Skyline Drive sector is another great aesthetic of the beginning of the offensive.

Would be interesting for Davide to weigh in on whether gameplay compromises forced these choices.

Can be easily adjusted. Not sure if you're a aware of Rob 'Hawkeye' Kunz's Ardennes '44 scenario for TOAW IV; I collaborated and assisted him.

UNIT DEPLOYMENT
The German panzer divisions will be delayed two or three turns before being released. This reflects the historic delay in preparing crossing sites for 2d Pz, 116th Pz, and Pz Lehr Divisions, or in the case of the 1 SS and 12 SS Panzer Divisions, the decision to lead the attack with the infantry divisions followed by the panzers.
The 116 Panzer Divsion is temporarity immobilized when it found the bridge was unable to support the panzers and was diverted to cross at Dasburg.
The 2.Panzer Division is immobilized overnight on 20 Dec while waiting for fuel to be brought up.
Several US units, such as the 82nd and 101st Airborne, the 7th Armored Division, arrive at their historic assembly areas rather than their historic entry points.



Klink, Oberst




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 11/26/2021 5:50:45 PM >


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(in reply to Genosse)
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RE: Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/26/2021 6:20:02 PM   
Nico165b165


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Yes, there's also JTS (now WDS) Bulge 44 at the same scale. And various sources from books.

But I'd like to know if there is a reason why the setup is different in this game. Helping the AI? Campaign balance? Might be good to know before changing it

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RE: Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/26/2021 8:43:52 PM   
Genosse

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nico165b165

Yes, there's also JTS (now WDS) Bulge 44 at the same scale. And various sources from books.

But I'd like to know if there is a reason why the setup is different in this game. Helping the AI? Campaign balance? Might be good to know before changing it


- This is key.

I guess in general I'd say many post release questions on this forum have two variants of response: here's how you can edit it yourself, and then if you don't have the skill or interest or want to hear from the devs as to why they made a certain choice, what would the non-scenario editor answer be?

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RE: Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/29/2021 6:02:06 PM   
nikdav


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After 3 years of testing is a little hard to recall the reasons for each choice, i don't remember how many times a bridge was blown and than on place again.
The first versions (Official Wacht is 97th version) had all Pz and SS divisions idle for 1/2 turns, many bridges blown, but the US human player had no problem to hold the lines and the fun was away, so I leaved only the 1st Army units idle for 2 turns to simulate Hodges HQ caos in the first hours (and there was some complaint about this).
Last AI is much better than 3 years ago so i think to upload a beta version of Wacht to test other set-up!
Every suggestion is appreciated !

Davide
_____________________________________________________
- DC: Ardennes Offensive Scenario Designer
- DC: Barbarossa Community Project Scenario Designer
- Unity of Command Beta tester and Scenario Designer
- Pike and Shot Beta tester and Scenario Designer
- SSG Kharkov Beta tester and Scenario Designer


< Message edited by nikdav -- 11/29/2021 6:04:02 PM >

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RE: Position and release of 1 SS PzK - 11/29/2021 9:12:25 PM   
timmyab

 

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I wonder if the Our river has been misidentified as an XL river. I would estimate it to be a medium river in game terms. It's not very wide and even looks to be fordable in places. Maybe that has been the problem here.


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