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Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapons' maximum listed altitude?

 
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Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapons' m... - 10/23/2021 11:22:15 AM   
maverick3320

 

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Playing Baltic Fury 2. I have a Su-17M-3R Fitter H flying over a target area protected by a Stinger Dual MANPADS platform (#268). The actual weapon is a FIM-92E Stinger RMP Blk I, with a listed maximum engagement altitude of 16000AGL.

I have my Fitter set to fly at 16250 AGL by manually setting the altitude and checking the "Terrain Following AGL" box.

I understand that aircraft in loiter vary in altitude a bit, but observing my aircraft at no point does it really even come close to the 16000 feet AGL, yet it is still being engaged by the Stingers.

What am I missing?
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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/23/2021 11:39:32 AM   
CHM


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Is the Stinger itself located higher above sea level?

(in reply to maverick3320)
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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/25/2021 4:12:55 PM   
maverick3320

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CHM

Is the Stinger itself located higher above sea level?


It is, but isn't that irrelevant? The engagement profile of the stinger says "AGL". So if the Stinger is at 1000 feet ASL it would be a total of 17,000 AGL. My plane, inhabiting the same area, has it's altitude set manually at 16,250 AGL, which would put the plane at 17,250 ASL.

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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/25/2021 5:23:13 PM   
stww2

 

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The plane probably wouldn't be on the exact same area, though. It could be several miles away, which in mountainous terrain could mean a major difference in terrain height.

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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/25/2021 5:24:55 PM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

but observing my aircraft at no point does it really even come close to the 16000 feet AGL,


I'm really not sure if it is modeled in the game but the operator of that Stinger would have a hard time to tell the difference between 16000 AGL & 16250 AGL.

If the Stinger was able to hit you above its max alt, it would be different but ... 250ft is pretty close to someone on the ground looking up through hand held optics. Perhaps a Dev could clarify if there is a 'fudge zone' in effect.

It might be interesting if someone could test and see if that happens at increments above the max alt or with different systems.

B

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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/25/2021 5:56:05 PM   
Scorpion86

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maverick3320
It is, but isn't that irrelevant? The engagement profile of the stinger says "AGL". So if the Stinger is at 1000 feet ASL it would be a total of 17,000 AGL. My plane, inhabiting the same area, has it's altitude set manually at 16,250 AGL, which would put the plane at 17,250 ASL.


"Groud Level" is wherever the weapon system is placed, meaning the engagement envelope's height will be the Stinger's height ASL + 16000 ft. Just think it through: if command sent a mountain climber with a Stinger to the top of a 15999 ft high mountain, do you think the missile would just go up 1 foot and refuse to rise any further?

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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/25/2021 7:01:55 PM   
Filitch


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Probably Stinger operator locates at some heights (hill) so, altitude AGL + 16000 ft for this point is above altitude AGL + 16250 ft of point where Su-17s locate during entering Stinger's engagement envelope? During Afghan war MANPAD's operators took position at hills and mountains. There is case when plane was hit at altitude 6500 m ASL. Moreover there have been cases when mujahideen use PRG against helicopters. Fortunately there aren't hits.

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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/26/2021 7:39:58 PM   
maverick3320

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stww2

The plane probably wouldn't be on the exact same area, though. It could be several miles away, which in mountainous terrain could mean a major difference in terrain height.


True. This is over Bornholm island in the Baltic sea. The highest point on the entire island appears to be around 160m high, and there isn't a ton of variance elsewhere.

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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/26/2021 7:40:56 PM   
maverick3320

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

quote:

but observing my aircraft at no point does it really even come close to the 16000 feet AGL,


I'm really not sure if it is modeled in the game but the operator of that Stinger would have a hard time to tell the difference between 16000 AGL & 16250 AGL.

If the Stinger was able to hit you above its max alt, it would be different but ... 250ft is pretty close to someone on the ground looking up through hand held optics. Perhaps a Dev could clarify if there is a 'fudge zone' in effect.

It might be interesting if someone could test and see if that happens at increments above the max alt or with different systems.

B


Makes sense. I guess I just assumed the height limitation on MANPADS wasn't spotting, but more of the actual range of the weapon itself?

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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/26/2021 7:45:18 PM   
maverick3320

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scorpion86

quote:

ORIGINAL: maverick3320
It is, but isn't that irrelevant? The engagement profile of the stinger says "AGL". So if the Stinger is at 1000 feet ASL it would be a total of 17,000 AGL. My plane, inhabiting the same area, has it's altitude set manually at 16,250 AGL, which would put the plane at 17,250 ASL.


"Groud Level" is wherever the weapon system is placed, meaning the engagement envelope's height will be the Stinger's height ASL + 16000 ft. Just think it through: if command sent a mountain climber with a Stinger to the top of a 15999 ft high mountain, do you think the missile would just go up 1 foot and refuse to rise any further?


No, but again, irrelevant, because my plane was also ordered to fly above ground level (with the follow the terrain box checked!), not above sea level, and the plane was occupying roughly the same vertical space as the Stinger.

if the Stinger was at 15,999 feet then it's engagement envelope in your scenario would be 15,999 + 16,000 = 31,999 feet ASL...but then my plane would be flying at 15,999 + 16,250 = 32,249 ASL, and therefore still outside the weapon's engagement envelope.

Make sense?

(in reply to Scorpion86)
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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/26/2021 8:43:39 PM   
BDukes

 

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I ran at test file and looked in the manual firing dialog of the stinger. The Stinger ceiling is 16433 AGL which is above the 16250 in your original post so make sense why you were engaged. It says 16000 AGL in the db viewer. The calculated terrain follow hosed you.

Up to devs as to how they want to handle this. Either fix the Stinger to be 16K AGL exactly or take a look at the alt bands of the fitter's loadouts. Honestly 250 ft is really not that huge of a difference, no pilot would ride that line purposefully but at the same time, the game shouldn't be automatically guiding you into a bad decision. This doesn't seem like too big of an issue at all at this point.

Mike












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< Message edited by BDukes -- 10/26/2021 8:50:02 PM >


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RE: Can AA platforms engage aircraft above their weapon... - 10/26/2021 8:48:33 PM   
BDukes

 

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Here's a save if you want to pursue this further in tech support.

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