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Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta?

 
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Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 5:59:28 AM   
Sauron_II

 

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The standard Luftwaffe 300L Drop Tank is listed as "Expired Loadouts" beginning Turn 2 for Germany for the Bf 109F-2s. Can be used on turn 1, but not afterwards.

Same for the 109E-7s. (probably same across the board)

Did not see anything in the patch notes regarding setting the last date (for this loadout) to 6/1941.

Was this intentional? (would be really weird if it was... as these 300L drop tanks were used on numerous subsequent 109 variants as well)




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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 6:02:05 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

The standard Luftwaffe 300L Drop Tank is listed as "Expired Loadouts" beginning Turn 2 for Germany for the Bf 109F-2s. Can be used on turn 1, but not afterwards.

Same for the 109E-7s. (probably same across the board)

Did not see anything in the patch notes regarding setting the last date (for this loadout) to 6/1941.

Was this intentional? (would be really weird if it was... as these 300L drop tanks were used on numerous subsequent 109 variants as well)







I believe I read it on the BETA forums that they were taking it out but may have missed the notes on the main forum. But I have slept a couple times since I read the BETA forums and could be mixed up. Been too busy lately and too tired to go look at the moment so will have to wait for the definitive answer from the Powers in Charge or someone that remembers better than I.

(in reply to Sauron_II)
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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 6:37:13 AM   
Sauron_II

 

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Hope it was not intentional, as the ranges for the 109E-7 and 109F-2 look artificially short. (but verifying to make sure)

I am having transport missions intercepted by Lagg-3s from across the map. WiTE2 has their range set to 58 hexes (historically accurate).

quote:

The E-7 was the next major production variant, entering service and seeing combat at the end of August 1940. One of the limitations of the earlier Bf 109Es was their short range of 660 km (410 mi) and limited endurance, as the design was originally conceived as a short-range interceptor. The E-7 rectified this problem as it was the first Bf 109 subtype to be able to carry a drop tank, usually the standardized Luftwaffe 300 L (80 US gal) capacity unit mounted on a centre-line rack under the fuselage, which increased its range to 1,325 km (820 mi)


But then they removed the 300L drop tanks as well?

NOTE: WiTE2 does not allow you to modify AC range directly, but it is calculated from the set of AC specifications to include Endurance, Max Speed, etc. So verifying is a little involved....

EDIT: The WiTE2 ranges look correct for the 109E-7, 109F-2... But how they take 'Range' and convert to 'Radius' is still a mystery....

EDIT2: Think I got it... (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radius_of_action)

Basically, take the Range and divide by 3 to get the 'combat' radius. (note, this does not hold true for longer ranged AC, such as the JU-88)
Then take 'combat' radius and multiple by 3/4 to get the 'escort' radius.

< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 10/20/2021 3:26:09 PM >

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 10:02:53 AM   
jubjub

 

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This was in the patch notes. Get ready for massive ops losses on your 109's. The ops losses model severely punishes them for having low endurance. They have about a 8 hex radius from their airbase where they can operate without taking automatic damage from flying too far, running out of fuel, and emergency landing (apparently).

It was probably removed because the drop tanks didn't work too well on the early 109's.


< Message edited by jubjub -- 10/20/2021 10:07:03 AM >

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 10:40:00 AM   
Denniss

 

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Removal was intentional as they were rarely used in the East.
They were common for long rang ops like in the Med or for increaed endurance on high alt interceptions like in the West/Defence of the Reich

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 12:10:46 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Removal was intentional as they were rarely used in the East.



But rarely does not mean never. I don't get the point of removing them.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 12:23:47 PM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss
Removal was intentional as they were rarely used in the East.

Next, we are also going to remove Paratroopers and Amphibious units as they were rarely used in the East.
After a while, we are going to remove players imput as well and let the AI play a scripted version of the game instead, hence, no risk to use the Forces in a way we don't like.

< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/20/2021 12:25:59 PM >

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 1:03:17 PM   
Denniss

 

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With previous data they were almost always used to extend the range. That was ahistorical and is stopped now.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 4:18:09 PM   
Sauron_II

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

This was in the patch notes. Get ready for massive ops losses on your 109's. The ops losses model severely punishes them for having low endurance. They have about a 8 hex radius from their airbase where they can operate without taking automatic damage from flying too far, running out of fuel, and emergency landing (apparently).

It was probably removed because the drop tanks didn't work too well on the early 109's.



OPS losses only accounted for 13% of the total AC losses suffered by the Luftwaffe on the eastern front, through 1941.

But what you are saying about massive OPS losses correlates to my experiences any time you approach AC Range limits -- you are harshly punished. For example, flying one of the default Air Transport Escort assignments, as provided in the game's preloaded list of AC Transports / Escorts.

Regarding 'drop tanks' as far as not working well on the early 109's... cannot find anything to really support this. Especially considering they keep adding provisions for drop tanks in numerous subsequent variants, as well as the FW 190 variants....

quote:

The E-7 rectified this problem as it was the first Bf 109 subtype to be able to carry a drop tank, usually the standardized Luftwaffe 300 L (80 US gal) capacity unit mounted on a centre-line rack under the fuselage, which increased its range to 1,325 km (820 mi). Fuel from the drop tank was pumped to the internal fuel tank via a large fuel line that ran up and along the inside starboard wall of the cockpit, with a clear sight glass located in the fuel line's main span so the pilot could easily see the flow of fuel and know when the tank was empty. Alternatively, a bomb could be fitted and the E-7 could be used as a Jabo fighter-bomber. Previous Emil subtypes were progressively retrofitted with the necessary fittings for carrying a drop tank from October 1940.


quote:

Thanks to the improved aerodynamics, more fuel-efficient engines and the introduction of light-alloy versions of the standard Luftwaffe 300-litre drop tank, the Bf 109 F offered a much increased maximum range of 1,700 km (1,060 mi) compared to the Bf 109 E's maximum range figure of only 660 km (410 miles) on internal fuel, and with the E-7's provision for the 300-litre drop tank, a Bf 109E so equipped possessed double the range, to 1,325 km (820 mi).


quote:

With the Bf 109G, a number of special versions were introduced to cope with special mission profiles. Here, long-range fighter-reconnaissance and high-altitude interceptors can be mentioned. The former were capable of carrying two 300 L (80 US gal) drop tanks, one under each wing; and the latter received pressurized cockpits for pilot comfort and GM-1 nitrous oxide "boost" for high altitudes


quote:

The rack and internal fuel lines for carrying a 300 L (80 US gal) under-fuselage drop-tank were widely used on G-2s, as were the underwing 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon gondolas.


quote:

The G-6 was very often seen during 1943 fitted with assembly sets, used to carry bombs or a drop tank, for use as a night fighter, or to increase firepower by adding rockets or extra gondola-style, underwing gun pod mount ordnance.


quote:

The base subtypes could be equipped with Rüstsatz add-on standard field kits; in practice this meant hanging on some sort of additional equipment like drop tanks, bombs or cannons to standard attachment points, present on all production aircraft.


quote:

Additional Rüstsätze (equipment kits) such as a 300 L (80 US gal) drop tank (R III), bombs up to the size of 500 kg (1,100 lb) (R I), underwing 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 cannon gondola pods (R IV) or 21 cm (8.3 in) Wfr.Gr. 21 rockets (as on the Gustav models) could be carried after minimal preparation; the latter two were rarely used by Bf 109 units at this stage of the war...


quote:

The Fw 190G-1 was based on the A-4/U8. It used a drop tank rack provided by Weserflug that had been developed for the Junkers Ju 87. Each rack could carry a 300 litre/ 66 gallon drop tank.


quote:

The Fw 190G-2 saw the Stuka type tanks replaced with new low drag Messerschmitt racks. The first prototype was based on the A-5/U8 (with the A-5’s longer fuselage). Like the G-1 it had a ETC 501 rack under the fuselage and could carry one 300 litre drop tank under each wing. The Messerschmidt carriers (Trägers) were made up of two parts – a very low drag base mechanism that was fixed to the wing and N shaped bracing struts that carried the fuel tank, and were dropped with it. When the tanks were dropped, the G-2 was only 2mph slower than the standard Fw 190A-5/U8, making this the most efficient of the fuel tank racks used on the Fw 190G.



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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 6:24:29 PM   
GibsonPete


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"But rarely does not mean never. I don't get the point of removing them." Teo41_ITA makes a valid point. Should not the player decide which tools they will use. Drop tanks IMO are not an exploit. Denniss please reconsider the decision.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 9:12:43 PM   
Zovs


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Here is some data from some test games for just turn 1. You'd have to got the War Room to see/understand what jubjub and metaphore's T1 AD look like and how I merged them and added to them for my own. But at least for Turn 1 you can see the operational losses (along with everything else).

What I really think the devs need is analysis like this over a period of time that shows operational losses. That is just my opinion though.



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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 9:54:34 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Here is some data from some test games for just turn 1. You'd have to got the War Room to see/understand what jubjub and metaphore's T1 AD look like and how I merged them and added to them for my own. But at least for Turn 1 you can see the operational losses (along with everything else).

What I really think the devs need is analysis like this over a period of time that shows operational losses. That is just my opinion though.




How in the world do you people play with spreedsheets? :( I see enough spreedsheets at work.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/20/2021 10:51:14 PM   
Zovs


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Lol I only use them in Wargaming lol

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 5:53:08 AM   
Denniss

 

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I can't influence plane and pilot Ops losses, I consider them to be on the high side too.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 7:40:59 AM   
Nix77

 

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I've been using drop tanks strictly to extend the range of my fighters on quite large scale (ie using them with several Bf109 JGs), which probably isn't historically accurate so I understand Denniss's argument of removing them. There's also the argument of reliability, availability and how resource efficient the drop tanks actually were on the eastern front.

I'd be however more pleased to see them as an available option, but with the drawbacks being more visible. Not sure how easy this would be to implement with the current game engine.

(in reply to Denniss)
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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 9:48:43 AM   
carlkay58

 

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The LW had limited production facilities for the drop tanks and their needs in other theaters trumped the Eastern Front. This is the reason they were rarely used in the Eastern Front - air bases were usually quite near the front line and LW flew very few escorted missions beyond the front line so they did not feel the need for drop tanks.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 10:08:11 AM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The LW had limited production facilities for the drop tanks and their needs in other theaters trumped the Eastern Front. This is the reason they were rarely used in the Eastern Front - air bases were usually quite near the front line and LW flew very few escorted missions beyond the front line so they did not feel the need for drop tanks.



Yes, and I guess the general German ground support oriented doctrine on the eastern front didn't really justify a need for drop tanks.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 11:31:52 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"But rarely does not mean never. I don't get the point of removing them." Teo41_ITA makes a valid point. Should not the player decide which tools they will use. Drop tanks IMO are not an exploit. Denniss please reconsider the decision.


Rarely doesn't mean all the time either. Which is what players will do, use them so much that rarely has no meaning.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 11:59:27 AM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"But rarely does not mean never. I don't get the point of removing them." Teo41_ITA makes a valid point. Should not the player decide which tools they will use. Drop tanks IMO are not an exploit. Denniss please reconsider the decision.


Rarely doesn't mean all the time either. Which is what players will do, use them so much that rarely has no meaning.


Using drop tanks significantly increases the fuel cost of each sortie. I think it's more productive to ask why players are paying more per sortie and fixing that issue than to ban a feature outright.

Ultimately it won't be fixed until the devs work on the air, but using drop tanks was a welcome relief from the atrocious ops losses, and it's a feature that will be sorely missed.

(in reply to Aurelian)
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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 12:07:34 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"But rarely does not mean never. I don't get the point of removing them." Teo41_ITA makes a valid point. Should not the player decide which tools they will use. Drop tanks IMO are not an exploit. Denniss please reconsider the decision.


Rarely doesn't mean all the time either. Which is what players will do, use them so much that rarely has no meaning.


They could just increase fuel consumption per each sortie, forcing the player to think twice before adding drop tanks in each fighter wing every turn. Is this so complicated to code?

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 1:33:29 PM   
Joch1955

 

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correct, drop tanks were not normally used on the Eastern Front since air bases were positioned close to the front lines.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 3:31:22 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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So it is written, "No more Drop Tanks" so I will just play without them.


I guess next is Germans need more metal for can food goods and thus the "potato masher" will no longer be used for ground combat ;-P



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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 5:32:34 PM   
GibsonPete


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"The LW had limited production facilities for the drop tanks and their needs in other theaters trumped the Eastern Front. This is the reason they were rarely used in the Eastern Front - air bases were usually quite near the front line and LW flew very few escorted missions beyond the front line so they did not feel the need for drop tanks."

I will assume this is true. It makes sense but again should the player not make that decision? As for fuel consumption it is increased when drop tank tanks are used.

From a personal perspective I did not use the drop tanks (after turn 01) so it will not effect the way I play.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/21/2021 10:04:55 PM   
IslandInland


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As far as I can tell this change in drop tank use after June 41 isn't even working.

I've just quickly played some H2H turns in the 1941 Campaign till the end of July and my Bf 109E-7/F-2's are still using the 300L Drop Tank. I checked in the editor and both the 1941 Campaign Scenario data and the generic data for the E-7 and F-2 has been changed but for some reason I can still use the drop tanks in July 1941.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/22/2021 1:23:18 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"But rarely does not mean never. I don't get the point of removing them." Teo41_ITA makes a valid point. Should not the player decide which tools they will use. Drop tanks IMO are not an exploit. Denniss please reconsider the decision.


Rarely doesn't mean all the time either. Which is what players will do, use them so much that rarely has no meaning.


They could just increase fuel consumption per each sortie, forcing the player to think twice before adding drop tanks in each fighter wing every turn. Is this so complicated to code?


Why code something that was *rarely* used? Might as well code in the Soviet Sapper Armies and the Strategic Directions.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/22/2021 1:24:45 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

So it is written, "No more Drop Tanks" so I will just play without them.


I guess next is Germans need more metal for can food goods and thus the "potato masher" will no longer be used for ground combat ;-P





They could recycle the cans into those grenades. Dual use cans.


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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/25/2021 4:07:20 PM   
Joel Billings


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I looked at a save of a recent game and in June 41 I could use the drop tanks on the 109, but in July 41 it was listed as an expired loadout and I could not select it. How exactly are you using the drop tank after June 41? Can you attach a save. I don't know if this date changed recently, but if it did and your game started before the data change, then it would not include the data change.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/25/2021 4:29:53 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I looked at a save of a recent game and in June 41 I could use the drop tanks on the 109, but in July 41 it was listed as an expired loadout and I could not select it. How exactly are you using the drop tank after June 41? Can you attach a save. I don't know if this date changed recently, but if it did and your game started before the data change, then it would not include the data change.


I bet the update was done in the middle of turn that already started. I bet it would need the end phase to update the info to not use. But if he did multiple turns then this guess is off the table. I am guessing he is talking about multiple games.

I have experience this update the same with my current game after the update where the German airbases are to have a 70ish experience but they do not if I fly to a new airbase in Russia. I bet at the end phase this will be changed. Again just a guess.

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Post #: 28
RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/25/2021 5:55:49 PM   
Joel Billings


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All data changes (like load out data) only changes when you start a new game.

As for the airbase experience problem, it is set the moment the airbase is captured. So for airbases already captured, they will be at the low experience level. Any new airbase captured once you use the update will have higher experience levels.

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RE: Why was the 300L drop tank removed in latest beta? - 10/25/2021 10:03:52 PM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I looked at a save of a recent game and in June 41 I could use the drop tanks on the 109, but in July 41 it was listed as an expired loadout and I could not select it. How exactly are you using the drop tank after June 41? Can you attach a save. I don't know if this date changed recently, but if it did and your game started before the data change, then it would not include the data change.


I started the game after the drop tank change with the express purpose of testing the change.

The forum will not allow me to upload the save. I tried in .zip format and .rar format and I can't upload it.






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