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AC xfer - 10/17/2021 4:05:40 AM   
Sauron_II

 

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One thing that strikes me as peculiar about how AC transfer works is that when AC depart a fully stocked airbase, they don't take any ammo, fuel, supplies with them to the new airbase.

It is like - "Hey boys, the troops have occupied Riga and your squadron is being redeployed to the local airbase immediately. But don't take any fuel, supplies, ammo with you. In fact, aircrews will be collecting all of that from you before you depart. Also, be sure to only fill tanks to the minimum amount required to make the flight to the new airbase... and nothing more."

I think the game could be a little more lenient when it comes to AC xfers regarding ammo / fuel / supplies.

I believe it should be similar to the way the game handles staging bases. Except in this case, the AC is just landing and not immediately continuing onto a mission. (but have the ammo / fuel / supplies to do so for that turn, if needed.)

This would also give the supply system a turn to register airbase supply needs for the newly arriving aircraft, without making them starve a week first.
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RE: AC xfer - 10/17/2021 5:01:46 AM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
I believe it should be similar to the way the game handles staging bases.


I hope not as the handling of staging bases is bugged too. The issue is not only about airbase supply following transfer but airbase supply in general.

You surely have noticed that you can manually ask for an airbase to be resupplied in the right-click menu. Sometime it takes more than one click to bring up all the ammo, fuel and supplies they need. Also, resupply can be done at higher command echelon (air corps, army) but seems totally ineffective. Then one need to inspect all their airbases one by one to check for any deficit, then manually refill them.

Consequently, when one is rebasing aircraft in newly controled territory but already has opened a motorized path to their depot, it's possible to resupply manually the new airfield with fuel, ammo and supplies... but not support squads.

For getting an adequate support level at any newly controled airfield, one need to fly first some freight BEFORE rebasing any aircraft, because once aircraft are rebased, it's not possible anymore to convert airlifted freight to support squads!

But what happen when one wish to rebase aircraft during the Air Phase (in controled territory) and the new airfield is lacking all the support needed?
- Its not possible to airflift freight during the Air Phase
- Its not possible to convert other moved freight to support squad manually

...

And why the hell do I need to constantly manually resupply my airbases (including those in controlled territory, including first campaign turn) all over the map?
Something is simply very wrong with AIRBASE SUPPLY in general.

< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/17/2021 6:04:36 AM >

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RE: AC xfer - 10/17/2021 1:29:48 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Use your supply transports to supply the target airbase first. You can then transfer in the air groups and have them ready to fly.

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RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 8:10:14 AM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Use your supply transports to supply the target airbase first. You can then transfer in the air groups and have them ready to fly.


When you are doing such transfer during the Air Phase, it's not possible to airlift some supply in advance.

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RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 8:17:30 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

.. but not support squads.

...
Something is simply very wrong with AIRBASE SUPPLY in general.


ok, and just how do you think that support squads reach these airbases? Yes your transport assets can bring in fuel etc but the manpower and their equivalent have to get there somehow? So the system allocates them if they are already in the relative area or in the logistics phase(s) if the new base is some distance from where the squads were before.

so you have "opened a motorized path to their depot" and you think that a group of essentially non-combat specialists are doing what? riding on the tanks with their equipment.

I realise its much easier to shout the game is broken but its also often a good idea to take a step back and think about what is being modelled and what you seem to want to be happening.

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RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 10:09:33 AM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

.. but not support squads.

...
Something is simply very wrong with AIRBASE SUPPLY in general.


ok, and just how do you think that support squads reach these airbases? Yes your transport assets can bring in fuel etc but the manpower and their equivalent have to get there somehow? So the system allocates them if they are already in the relative area or in the logistics phase(s) if the new base is some distance from where the squads were before.

so you have "opened a motorized path to their depot" and you think that a group of essentially non-combat specialists are doing what? riding on the tanks with their equipment.

I realise its much easier to shout the game is broken but its also often a good idea to take a step back and think about what is being modelled and what you seem to want to be happening.


Yes, something is really wrong with Airbase Supply - and, of course, it's due to the way it's managed by the game engine.

As a matter of fact, I shouldn't have to replenish manually half of my airbases at the start of the Campaign Scenario.

Next, it doesn't make sense that rebasing some aircraft inside controled territory (in particular at the start of the game) would make them unable to get the right ammount of support squads required to operate because support is not following those aircraft.

Next, it doesn't make sense that airlifted transport is only available during the ground phase when it's the only way to move air supply where it might be needed - so we can move aircraft during the Air phase... but not supply and more importantly support squads; on top of it, one should aknowledge that the primary mission of those Ju 52 squadrons was to keep the Luftwaffe supplied and not to supply the ground forces. It is what they are used for by by the AI: it's Berlin Air-Bridge every day in the Eastern Front.

In other words, Ju 52 are the trucks of the Luftwaffe and could have been modeled as such (with a pool, etc.) and Ground forces air supply would be an exceptional mission for them.

When a Fighter Gruppe was rebased somewhere, they needed those Ju 52 to bring many things making them operational immediately. In particular, those Gruppen were sometime rebased on a daily basis and it doesn't feel right to have to wait from one turn (seven days) for this stuff to be available.

Etc. etc.

Beside,

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
so you have "opened a motorized path to their depot" and you think that a group of essentially non-combat specialists are doing what? riding on the tanks with their equipment.


Common'... support squad will use the controled road network and trucks to reach those captured airbases, the same as any other unit is doing. Actually, it would make sense for bomber Gruppen to do that (considering the ammount of freight) while fighter Gruppen support could be rather flown at captured base with "air trucks".

< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/18/2021 10:27:15 AM >

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RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 1:00:14 PM   
loki100


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ok, so if I undestand you, the formations tucked in behind the pzr spearheads were highly specialist airbase technicians etc, with their equipment and the means to sustain air operations?

And every feasible airbase in the Reich should be fully stocked with supply on T1 just in case you want to use it? Could be a bit of a problem if there is then a shortage of supply in the ground combat formations?

that helps, at least it gives me a feel for what you think is 'very wrong'

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RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 1:05:13 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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....don't forget the magic Hitler UFO's that should also appear on demand.....

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RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 1:16:20 PM   
panzer51

 

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Most squadrons had a transport plane assigned to them. Soviets used U-2 very often, and Italians had Ca.133s. The game doesn't model that but in reality that transport plane would carry supplies etc to the new location. Most bases were not stocked up front because they were nothing but a grass field. But there must be a way to send ground support, supplies etc in advance.

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RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 1:32:00 PM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
ok, so if I undestand you, the formations tucked in behind the pzr spearheads were highly specialist airbase technicians etc, with their equipment and the means to sustain air operations?


It's actually exactly the way ground units, supply columns and HQs are supposed to be moving into newly controled territory behind combat units. Why would you limit any ground gain to "pzr spearheads"?

If I can manage to move my ground HQ (of any size) thru what I'm calling a "motorized path" (3 hexes wide), why any air support units could not do the same? Are those HQs support squads so different from air units support squads? The only notable difference is that HQs support are moved manually with their counters while Air HQs (support squads) are supposed to be moved (or not) by AI to the next base.


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
And every feasible airbase in the Reich should be fully stocked with supply on T1 just in case you want to use it? Could be a bit of a problem if there is then a shortage of supply in the ground combat formations?


That's a silly comment.
We already have depots and supply stocks: then it's of course very possible to bring whatever supply is needed to any connected airbase which is close enough (manually by clicking and clicking and clicking)... but what's not possible is to move air support squads with those aircraft when they are rebasing.

Again, it's possible to bring air support squads during the "Ground Phase" (using air transport trick) but it's not possible during the "Air Phase" because we can't do air transport.



quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
that helps, at least it gives me a feel for what you think is 'very wrong'

Please, cut your patronizing tone and try not to make fun of everything I'm saying for one minute before jumping so fast to conclusion.

< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/18/2021 9:46:17 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: AC xfer - 10/18/2021 1:47:28 PM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Most squadrons had a transport plane assigned to them. Soviets used U-2 very often, and Italians had Ca.133s. The game doesn't model that but in reality that transport plane would carry supplies etc to the new location. Most bases were not stocked up front because they were nothing but a grass field. But there must be a way to send ground support, supplies etc in advance.

Exactly.

(in reply to panzer51)
Post #: 11
RE: AC xfer - 10/19/2021 9:43:47 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Actually this already happens when you transfer an air group. When you perform an air group transfer to an unoccupied air base the game attempts to resupply the air base with both supplies and troops. You can also manually trigger this resupply through the interface (not sure of how off the top of my head but a right click is in there somewhere - I think on the AOG label). But the fact is that it it too manpower intensive to maintain even minimal troops at each air base on the map for any nation.

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Post #: 12
RE: AC xfer - 10/19/2021 10:49:25 AM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore
...

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
that helps, at least it gives me a feel for what you think is 'very wrong'

Please, cut your patronizing tone and try not to make fun of everything I'm saying for one minute before jumping so fast to conclusion.


As Carlkay says, the routine moves support squads and supplies if it can when you transfer. I've never had any problem with pre-T1 Axis air redeployments and ensuring a new base is fully functional.

So I have no idea what you are actually doing but I suspect you are either misinterpreting what you see (something we can all do) or are really trying to push the system to breaking point (nothing wrong with experimenting at the margins but then you have to accept that things may well not work as you'd desire).

So yes, it does give me a feel for how to interpret when you state something is broken - especially when it contradicts my practical experience?

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RE: AC xfer - 10/19/2021 12:08:20 PM   
metaphore

 

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(hmm)


< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/19/2021 12:14:15 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: AC xfer - 10/19/2021 12:11:47 PM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
Actually this already happens when you transfer an air group. When you perform an air group transfer to an unoccupied air base the game attempts to resupply the air base with both supplies and troops.

It's working for supply but it's only moving a limited ammount of freight one has to complete manually. As for the support squads, it's not obvious that anything is actually moving with aircraft as, most of the time, the airbase will show up being short of support, or, as with supply, what is moving with aircraft is too little.


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
You can also manually trigger this resupply through the interface (not sure of how off the top of my head but a right click is in there somewhere - I think on the AOG label). But the fact is that it it too manpower intensive to maintain even minimal troops at each air base on the map for any nation.

Of course we can trigger resupply: one can right-click directly at airbase labels, or higher echelon -korps, flotte, sub-menu (the later seems to do nothing in term of effective resupply). But it's only working for getting supply and not support squads, which is the primary issue I'm discussing here.

And no, I'm not demanding to maintain any minimal level of support troops at any of them (as I would also like to get rid of airbase unit auto-generation). I just want to be able to move my air support squads when I need them every time I can also move my aircraft (both phase); and preferably manually, because half-auto stuff doesn't work very well and it's finally taking way more time to manage it (like those HQs auto rail repair units vs manual FBDs management). In fact, it's quite hard to understand how it is actually working, or supposed to work, vs what it really does.




< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/19/2021 12:39:52 PM >

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