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Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack

 
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Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/7/2021 2:45:03 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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I have seen many posts indicating that setting torpedo bombers, whether land-based or CV-based, to 10-20% Nav Search increases the likelihood they will attack.

Is there any definitive answer on this game mechanic?

Alfred lists these factors as key to whether land-based bombers will conduct nav attacks (color text added):

1. Size of airfield

2. Lack of intel (Nav Search by the squadron would likely improve this, but does the game treat intel gathered by the squadron's own pilots as better than intel gained by other squadrons dedicated to Nav Search?)

3. Weather

4. Lack of escorting fighters

5. Range

6. Experience

7. Leadership - being aggressive is not the be all of leadership

8. Inadequate base supply

9. Inappropriate time phase
Post #: 1
RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/7/2021 5:13:31 PM   
castor troy


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nah, highly doubt that and have never seen anything in the game that would support this theory. Of course the higher the DL the more likely your bombers will attack (in NUMBERS) because high DL also means identifying ship types and you will get more bombers attacking BBs than xAKs but where the DL is coming from doesn't matter.

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RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/7/2021 5:14:43 PM   
Maallon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

2. Lack of intel (Nav Search by the squadron would likely improve this, but does the game treat intel gathered by the squadron's own pilots as better than intel gained by other squadrons dedicated to Nav Search?)


As far as I know this is not the case, it is not important from where the Intel is coming from, all that matter is the DL and MDL of the detected ships. So no, you don't need to set your TB squadrons on Nav Search, as long as there are other squadrons who are already doing Nav Search in the area.

But setting them on Nav Search can increase your chances on finding enemy ships and/or raising their DL further, though this is very situational and you need to ask yourself if it is worth it to hold back several TBs for NAVS instead of torpedoing the enemy.
A higher DL on the enemy fleet is always useful though and battles can be decided through that, but there is no rule of thumb answer, you must assess the situation and make the appropriate decision.

If you haven't done so already, I would very much recommend reading chapter 10 of the manual.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
I have seen many posts indicating that setting torpedo bombers, whether land-based or CV-based, to 10-20% Nav Search increases the likelihood they will attack.

Is there any definitive answer on this game mechanic?



What this likely means is that the 10-20% Nav Search planes will increase the DL of the enemy fleet further and thus make it more likely that your squadrons will attack the appropriate targets.
Also if you don't have other search assets in the area you definitely need to set some of your squadrons (including float planes if available) on Nav Search, because you will be more or less blind otherwise.

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 3
RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/7/2021 5:18:38 PM   
BBfanboy


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FPs are especially valuable for night NavS in the immediate vicinity of any TF seeking battle... it can develop the reaction toward the enemy or raise the MDL for the day phase.

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RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/7/2021 5:58:11 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

2. Lack of intel (Nav Search by the squadron would likely improve this, but does the game treat intel gathered by the squadron's own pilots as better than intel gained by other squadrons dedicated to Nav Search?)


As far as I know this is not the case, it is not important from where the Intel is coming from, all that matter is the DL and MDL of the detected ships. So no, you don't need to set your TB squadrons on Nav Search, as long as there are other squadrons who are already doing Nav Search in the area.

But setting them on Nav Search can increase your chances on finding enemy ships and/or raising their DL further, though this is very situational and you need to ask yourself if it is worth it to hold back several TBs for NAVS instead of torpedoing the enemy.
A higher DL on the enemy fleet is always useful though and battles can be decided through that, but there is no rule of thumb answer, you must assess the situation and make the appropriate decision.

If you haven't done so already, I would very much recommend reading chapter 10 of the manual.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
I have seen many posts indicating that setting torpedo bombers, whether land-based or CV-based, to 10-20% Nav Search increases the likelihood they will attack.

Is there any definitive answer on this game mechanic?



What this likely means is that the 10-20% Nav Search planes will increase the DL of the enemy fleet further and thus make it more likely that your squadrons will attack the appropriate targets.
Also if you don't have other search assets in the area you definitely need to set some of your squadrons (including float planes if available) on Nav Search, because you will be more or less blind otherwise.

Yes, chapter 10 indicates the DL of a TF is increased by 1 for each search aircraft that spots it and if your only good search option are the bombers themselves, than they must search.

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 5
RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/7/2021 8:36:58 PM   
RangerJoe


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I usually use the Vals early for search.

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RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/8/2021 10:06:54 AM   
HansBolter


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I am one who likely helped start this 'urban legend' as I have been claiming, based solely on anecdotal evidence, that this has been the case going all the way back to the Uncommon Valor days.

I noticed, over the course of many games, that I got better results in the way of actual sorties flown, when the squadrons tasked with the NAV Attack mission had a NAV Search setting of at least 10%.

When I relied exclusively on the PBY squadron at the base for NAV search, the NAV bombers would sit and do nothing.

As soon as I assigned a NAV Search setting of 10% to each of the bombing squadrons, they started flying missions.

Yes, we are all aware there are many, many factors that contribute to a given squadron flying or not, but there is simply no substitute for experience and I have witnessed this effect over dozens, upon dozens of games.

Perhaps it is something as simple as the DL being increased by the application of additional searches. I typically don't stand down the PBY squadron just because I'm searching with the bomber squadrons so perhaps its the double duty that is paying off.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 10/8/2021 10:09:35 AM >


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RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/8/2021 10:20:32 AM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I am one who likely helped start this 'urban legend' as I have been claiming, based solely on anecdotal evidence, that this has been the case going all the way back to the Uncommon Valor days.

I noticed, over the course of many games, that I got better results in the way of actual sorties flown, when the squadrons tasked with the NAV Attack mission had a NAV Search setting of at least 10%.

When I relied exclusively on the PBY squadron at the base for NAV search, the NAV bombers would sit and do nothing.

As soon as I assigned a NAV Search setting of 10% to each of the bombing squadrons, they started flying missions.

Yes, we are all aware there are many, many factors that contribute to a given squadron flying or not, but there is simply no substitute for experience and I have witnessed this effect over dozens, upon dozens of games.

Perhaps it is something as simple as the DL being increased by the application of additional searches. I typically don't stand down the PBY squadron just because I'm searching with the bomber squadrons so perhaps its the double duty that is paying off.



I tend to agree with Hans here. I have also seen them attack more often than not with some percentage set to NavSearch....GP

< Message edited by btd64 -- 10/8/2021 10:21:15 AM >


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RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/8/2021 11:39:02 AM   
RangerJoe


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Who knows, maybe there is also a communication check with the unit about the results of the Naval Search and by tasking part of the unit for this, then the unit is more likely to fly an attack mission.

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Post #: 9
RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/8/2021 12:15:40 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Who knows, maybe there is also a communication check with the unit about the results of the Naval Search and by tasking part of the unit for this, then the unit is more likely to fly an attack mission.

I recall Alfred stating that search from the same base is more likely to get bombers to launch than a sighting made by an aircraft from another base. The game may model a time delay in ops points for transmission of such intel. If so, I would think that applies to ships at sea as well - search from the same TF would alert all the carriers within the TF but other TFs might have a delay as the info is relayed to the Command HQ and then sent to the TFs it thinks need to know.

Real life example - an Aussie Hudson search plane spotted Mikawa's fleet coming down 'The Slot' the afternoon before the Savo Island battle, but misidentified them as a cruiser and some destroyers. The Aussie HQ thought it a low threat to the Guadalcanal landings so they did not relay the message to the USN on an urgent basis. The message about the sighting was not received by the USN Amphib Commander or the Aussie escort commander until after the battle.

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Post #: 10
RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/8/2021 6:13:50 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

...(Nav Search by the squadron would likely improve this, but does the game treat intel gathered by the squadron's own pilots as better than intel gained by other squadrons dedicated to Nav Search?) ...




No.

Any difference in intel quality here results from the naval search rating of the pilots themselves, not as to which unit did the sighting (however, don't overlook the impact of point 4 below).

Assigning some bomber planes to naval search does not ipso facto, increase the odds of the bomber unit sortieing against an enemy task force. Players need to take into account the following.

1. The detection level of an enemy TF is an aggregated number obtained from many sources.

2. In each phase, the player is only notified the first time a plane spots an enemy TF. Aircraft from other units which also spot the same enemy TF in that phase increase further the detection level but the player is not directly informed of the additional spotting.

3. There are many factors which can ground an air unit and not carry out its mission. These factors are not in play for searching but are in play for bombing in the same phase. IOW, if the unit could fly some naval search, it can also fly off to bomb. Bear in mind that the grounding factors may come into play for some but not all units at the same location, let alone if different locations are involved.

4. Most bomber types have shorter legs than dedicated patrol types, hence any subsidiary searching by a bomber unit will probably be limited to a much shorter search range than that assigned by a player to a patrol unit. The shorter the search range, the better the odds of finding something. This is the search density factor in play.

Alfred


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Post #: 11
RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/8/2021 6:27:00 PM   
USSAmerica


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Good stuff, Alfred! Thank you!

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Post #: 12
RE: Nav Search Influencing if Torp Bombers Attack - 10/9/2021 6:21:57 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1359
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From: Austin / Brisbane
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

...(Nav Search by the squadron would likely improve this, but does the game treat intel gathered by the squadron's own pilots as better than intel gained by other squadrons dedicated to Nav Search?) ...




No.

Any difference in intel quality here results from the naval search rating of the pilots themselves, not as to which unit did the sighting (however, don't overlook the impact of point 4 below).

Assigning some bomber planes to naval search does not ipso facto, increase the odds of the bomber unit sortieing against an enemy task force. Players need to take into account the following.

1. The detection level of an enemy TF is an aggregated number obtained from many sources.

2. In each phase, the player is only notified the first time a plane spots an enemy TF. Aircraft from other units which also spot the same enemy TF in that phase increase further the detection level but the player is not directly informed of the additional spotting.

3. There are many factors which can ground an air unit and not carry out its mission. These factors are not in play for searching but are in play for bombing in the same phase. IOW, if the unit could fly some naval search, it can also fly off to bomb. Bear in mind that the grounding factors may come into play for some but not all units at the same location, let alone if different locations are involved.

4. Most bomber types have shorter legs than dedicated patrol types, hence any subsidiary searching by a bomber unit will probably be limited to a much shorter search range than that assigned by a player to a patrol unit. The shorter the search range, the better the odds of finding something. This is the search density factor in play.

Alfred



As always, Alfred, thanks!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 13
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