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RE: Air Superiority is worthless

 
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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 1:36:29 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Again in RTM I skip the 1st turn and do nothing with the germans to get to the Soviet phase to rest Soviet Aircraft. 2nd turn I set these German aircraft on a 3 hex AS mission that you can see in the snapshot. I advance to the ground phase.




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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 1:38:50 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Here are the losses for ~120 German fighters flying AS at the end of the air phase. 10 ops losses and 1 flak loss plus two other losses I didn't look at on the field of battle.

The flak loss did not register as a flak loss even though it did show it during the air phase resoution. I move on to the ground phase.




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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/27/2021 1:39:56 PM >

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 1:41:03 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I do three quick attacks and out of the three 2 of them had more AS Ops losses as I showed earlier in the 41 campaign. So looks it is still happening here. Here are the 2 attacks.




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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 1:42:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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the other attack show more ops losses. this is the RTM scenario. So yeah current patch you want to keep you AS to very few hexes if you are going to use AS. Otherwise you are going to suffer losses out of the arse and even more losses if you attack where an AS is running.

The run time is the same it looks to me. I have the saves so if more is needed I can advance the turn and do the Soviet side but I am sure the results will be similar to ones I posted earlier just let me know.




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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/27/2021 1:47:35 PM >

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 1:54:12 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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So I reload RTM and do a much smaller AS this time.




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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 1:55:00 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Ops losses of 4.




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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 2:00:20 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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and still have ops losses over AS attacks.




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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 2:19:28 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I now set this up the way I run AS missions. That is to have 2 (3 or more is optimum) air groups cover the same hexes but each air group alternating days. So adhering to having airfields close and in a small AS area you can keep losses down. So in this instance it looks to be fine if you only have to pay the piper once for your ops losses. Again, this is how I set my AS's up.

Taking the example above I would have II/JG51 fly days 1, 4, 7. III/JG 51 fly days 2, 5 & IV/JG 51 fly 3, 6.




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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/27/2021 2:20:11 PM >

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 2:22:11 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Same AS area but alternating 3 air groups for the week netted 2 OPS losses. Thus anything beyond a 1 hex range with single air groups flying multiple days is not worth it to me. You defiantly don't want to fly distance on it.




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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/27/2021 2:24:29 PM >

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 2:59:33 PM   
Stephan61

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I now set this up the way I run AS missions. That is to have 2 (3 or more is optimum) air groups cover the same hexes but each air group alternating days. So adhering to having airfields close and in a small AS area you can keep losses down. So in this instance it looks to be fine if you only have to pay the piper once for your ops losses. Again, this is how I set my AS's up.

Taking the example above I would have II/JG51 fly days 1, 4, 7. III/JG 51 fly days 2, 5 & IV/JG 51 fly 3, 6.





Can I ask a question?

What are you expecting to happen in your AS Box? are you expecting a large fleet of Bombers/Escorts? to wander in on a bombing run?

Personally I would set up an AS directive over an Airfield or Airfields so you deny the Russians before they wander into your trap. That way you create superiority as intended.

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Post #: 70
RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 3:26:37 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I now set this up the way I run AS missions. That is to have 2 (3 or more is optimum) air groups cover the same hexes but each air group alternating days. So adhering to having airfields close and in a small AS area you can keep losses down. So in this instance it looks to be fine if you only have to pay the piper once for your ops losses. Again, this is how I set my AS's up.

Taking the example above I would have II/JG51 fly days 1, 4, 7. III/JG 51 fly days 2, 5 & IV/JG 51 fly 3, 6.





I guess another/additional way to set it up and reduce the sorties flown is to have them only fly missions in the enemy's phase, which is when they are going to fly the Ground Attack missions that I assume you would be trying to intercept. The way I see it is that if I want fighters to operate in my own phase I'd do it by assigning them as escorts? Although I have just checked and if you have assigned an AG to an A/S directive to fly in the enemy's phase only you can't use it to escort in the friendly phase.

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Post #: 71
RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 3:34:05 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I now set this up the way I run AS missions. That is to have 2 (3 or more is optimum) air groups cover the same hexes but each air group alternating days. So adhering to having airfields close and in a small AS area you can keep losses down. So in this instance it looks to be fine if you only have to pay the piper once for your ops losses. Again, this is how I set my AS's up.

Taking the example above I would have II/JG51 fly days 1, 4, 7. III/JG 51 fly days 2, 5 & IV/JG 51 fly 3, 6.





I guess another/additional way to set it up and reduce the sorties flown is to have them only fly missions in the enemy's phase, which is when they are going to fly the Ground Attack missions that I assume you would be trying to intercept. The way I see it is that if I want fighters to operate in my own phase I'd do it by assigning them as escorts? Although I have just checked and if you have assigned an AG to an A/S directive to fly in the enemy's phase only you can't use it to escort in the friendly phase.



Correct. That is what I do although in my test above I did both phases.

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 3:38:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephan61


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I now set this up the way I run AS missions. That is to have 2 (3 or more is optimum) air groups cover the same hexes but each air group alternating days. So adhering to having airfields close and in a small AS area you can keep losses down. So in this instance it looks to be fine if you only have to pay the piper once for your ops losses. Again, this is how I set my AS's up.

Taking the example above I would have II/JG51 fly days 1, 4, 7. III/JG 51 fly days 2, 5 & IV/JG 51 fly 3, 6.





Can I ask a question?

What are you expecting to happen in your AS Box? are you expecting a large fleet of Bombers/Escorts? to wander in on a bombing run?

Personally I would set up an AS directive over an Airfield or Airfields so you deny the Russians before they wander into your trap. That way you create superiority as intended.


These were just test to show you take additional ops losses when attacking within the AS box. Seem to be paying double cost on OPS losses. (All Soviet planes were grounded for this).

correct on your set up over Airfields or areas you want to project AS over. Again these are just tests and not actual games. I am just moving on with my games and will use AS on a much shorter leash if I use it at all.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/27/2021 3:39:35 PM >

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Post #: 73
RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 3:49:26 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Maybe Lokki is right and AS is working just fine?


So yeah, after all I posted here Loki is right. Only question that remains for me is should we be taking the extra OPS losses when attacking within an AS?

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Post #: 74
RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 4:13:25 PM   
Zovs


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Interesting in my tests (with my version, it's a beta testing version), I am not seeing any OP losses in 11 hasty attacks.

Used RTM as scenario test case, human both sides, setup up 1 AD, AS with a range of 10 hexes and left everything as the default.

Here is one attack:



Here is the second screen of that attack:



Maybe I am missing something?

Here is after 11 hasty attacks the air losses.



So far no OP losses.

I now end the turn after these 11 hasty attacks and start the Soviet turn.

I just execute both Soviet turns doing nothing.

Returning to the Axis player turn 2 I verify the only AD is AS and let that execute. Interestingly, now during the air execution phase I see some OP losses.

But what is more concerning is that even though I verified only 1 AD was set, I now see 2 GS, 5 Recon and my original AS missions assigned (and I did not click on use automated air).

I did one hasty attack and am now seeing OP losses for the Soviets but no losses for the Axis.





Last was a PA:


Maybe I just missing something?



_____________________________


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Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
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Post #: 75
RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 4:18:33 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Interesting in my tests (with my version, it's a beta testing version), I am not seeing any OP losses in 11 hasty attacks.

Used RTM as scenario test case, human both sides, setup up 1 AD, AS with a range of 10 hexes and left everything as the default.

Here is one attack:



Here is the second screen of that attack:



Maybe I am missing something?

Here is after 11 hasty attacks the air losses.



So far no OP losses.

I now end the turn after these 11 hasty attacks and start the Soviet turn.

I just execute both Soviet turns doing nothing.

Returning to the Axis player turn 2 I verify the only AD is AS and let that execute. Interestingly, now during the air execution phase I see some OP losses.

But what is more concerning is that even though I verified only 1 AD was set, I now see 2 GS, 5 Recon and my original AS missions assigned (and I did not click on use automated air).

I did one hasty attack and am now seeing OP losses for the Soviets but no losses for the Axis.


Maybe I just missing something?




Maybe it was fixed in your beta version 1.1.12? I am on current version 1.1.09.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/27/2021 4:19:25 PM >

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 4:23:55 PM   
Zovs


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It could well be. I took a small hiatus of a few months off testing.

I'll shut up now...

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

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Post #: 77
RE: Air Superiority is worthless - 9/27/2021 4:32:33 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

It could well be. I took a small hiatus of a few months off testing.

I'll shut up now...


No, talking is good :)

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Post #: 78
RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/27/2021 4:49:53 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

It could well be. I took a small hiatus of a few months off testing.

I'll shut up now...


No, talking is good :)


Later I will download the BETA versions and test it out. I see a great deal of good items coming for the game from a quick glance over there as Joel Billings already mentioned in a different thread. The Dev team is awesome in my book :)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/27/2021 4:53:24 PM >

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/27/2021 8:48:14 PM   
Zovs


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Yes, I think that AS is now working, at least from what I can tell. I do notice a small difference in the RTM and the C41 CG, in RTM I did not see any OP but in the C41 I do. On turn one that is.

Tricky bits to test, hence the RTM for sanity reasons. :D

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/27/2021 8:54:03 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Yes, I think that AS is now working, at least from what I can tell. I do notice a small difference in the RTM and the C41 CG, in RTM I did not see any OP but in the C41 I do. On turn one that is.

Tricky bits to test, hence the RTM for sanity reasons. :D


Working in the latest BETA version on the BETA forums correct? That is great to hear :)

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Post #: 81
RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 1:31:23 AM   
AlbertN

 

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So 'high specialized' means on a very few hexes, assuming front is static and one has amazing forecasting skills.

Given it can work for the naval interdiction, and maybe to hinder air supply in special zones. But then we have a potential situation where let's say one wants to do air superiority to clean the enemy of a zone instead of just escorting - dang, the massive Ops losses come.

Still think the way Hyla has shown - for how it seems workable - is disfunctioning. Especially as these thing sare before your mundane movement and cannot really command them from new bases or over where your troops factually arrived.

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 1:40:20 AM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

So 'high specialized' means on a very few hexes, assuming front is static and one has amazing forecasting skills.

Given it can work for the naval interdiction, and maybe to hinder air supply in special zones. But then we have a potential situation where let's say one wants to do air superiority to clean the enemy of a zone instead of just escorting - dang, the massive Ops losses come.

Still think the way Hyla has shown - for how it seems workable - is disfunctioning. Especially as these thing sare before your mundane movement and cannot really command them from new bases or over where your troops factually arrived.


I think they should let you modify your air directives during / after the ground phase.

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 2:54:28 AM   
jubjub

 

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I found an exploit with the air superiority directive and achieve 0 ops losses with over 1000 sorties. All the ops losses are from interceptions. I'll let you figure out how I did it for now (hint, the developers did not account for takeoff/landing accidents).





< Message edited by jubjub -- 9/28/2021 2:57:19 AM >

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 6:02:37 PM   
jubjub

 

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All you have to do is make the target, staging base the same and put the planes in the same airbase. With fuel tanks, your fighters can cover 81 hexes with this mission. I haven't tested this from anything besides a lvl 3 airbase, so maybe losses will go up. In this situation, a causality rate of .09% seems a little low. Triple it to .3% and I think it'd be fair.




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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 6:59:13 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

All you have to do is make the target, staging base the same and put the planes in the same airbase. With fuel tanks, your fighters can cover 81 hexes with this mission. I haven't tested this from anything besides a lvl 3 airbase, so maybe losses will go up. In this situation, a causality rate of .09% seems a little low. Triple it to .3% and I think it'd be fair.





DAMN! I just tested this on LvL2 and just WoW! Thanks for the great info & really turns AS around. WoW. Thank you for sharing.

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 7:00:30 PM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

DAMN! I just tested this on LvL2 and just WoW! Thanks for the great info & really turns AS around. WoW. Thank you for sharing.


Gonna be changing this thread to 'Air superiority is totally overpowered' soon lmao.

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Post #: 87
RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 7:02:30 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I just tested with 40 fighters making the Airbase the target with range of 8 & had 0 ops losses. Going to run the test with a different group.

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RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 7:03:17 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

quote:

DAMN! I just tested this on LvL2 and just WoW! Thanks for the great info & really turns AS around. WoW. Thank you for sharing.


Gonna be changing this thread to 'Air superiority is totally overpowered' soon lmao.


Yes, I would agree

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Post #: 89
RE: Air Superiority is worthless UNLESS used properly - 9/28/2021 7:03:55 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

quote:

DAMN! I just tested this on LvL2 and just WoW! Thanks for the great info & really turns AS around. WoW. Thank you for sharing.


Gonna be changing this thread to 'Air superiority is totally overpowered' soon lmao.


Yes, I would agree


You never know where the conversation will lead but now we know! What an amazing turn of events.

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