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mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt)

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mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/12/2021 8:58:37 PM   


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I've been playing 'Carrier Hunt' and blue side has 6 raptors to play with (plus many other assets, including very underwhelming F35s (vis a vis the Mighty Dragons, at any rate..). But, though I've been trying many different ways to use these choice F22 raptors to hunt, find and kill the Chinese 'Mighty Dragons' I've been finding it very difficult. The Mighty Dragons seem to be VERY hard to detect, for starters. They're just invisible for most of the time. Then, against the raptors, if it comes to that, it seems very even. I lose Raptors, the Chinese lose Mighty Dragons, but since they have more of these apex predators than I have Raptors, it's not so good. I always keep the F22 radar off. Is this right? It does seem to mean they don't usually detect the Mighty Dragons. And what if I'm left with only Super Hornets to deal with them? How is that best done?

Anyone have any hints as to how to deal with the 'Mighty Dragon' as found in the database, or anywhere they could point me to help?

Many thanks.
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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/12/2021 9:19:03 PM   


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Not my normal era to play but I believe the way ahead is teamwork. You will want to keep both your F-22 & F-35 radars off and all stores internal. The F-35 shines with its CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capability).

You will probably want to lure the Dragons into an area where you have both Raptors and Lightnings hiding, perhaps with some Hornets as bait. Have Growlers handy but silent.

Let the Dragons come into your kill zone and engage the Hornets, this is the tricky bit. Turn on the music from the Growlers to help your Hornets escape and pounce with your Raptors and Lightnings from behind, you have a better chance of picking up any LO aircraft from rear aspect due to engine bits and heat.

Won't be easy but as in everything in CMO -- don't set up a fair fight, set one up that you will win


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(in reply to Phoenix100)
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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/12/2021 9:45:07 PM   
T Rav


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Anyone that is in a fight, doesn't want a fair one!


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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/13/2021 7:58:33 AM   


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First and most important is to detect the enemy. So in this case turn radar on on raptor. Also you can position Growler behind the raptor with only OCM on (No radar on). Also try to position another Raptor or F35 from different angle (Opposite direction if possible). F35 needs OCM and radar on also. So changes are better to detect the Dragons.
So also Super Hornets can help to detect the dragons (with IRST). So i often manage to detect and fire before the dragons can fire.
i also separate 2 AC groups to one AC group so they can attack from different angles.
Also try to have the AEW AC as close as possible, but be carefull:)

(in reply to T Rav)
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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/13/2021 8:47:41 AM   


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Thanks Gunner and Morphin. You each recommend different on the essential question of sensors on or off. It's true that with sensors off the Mighty Dragons largely remain undetected, it seems, until they let off a missile. I'll experiment with radars on, though I'm fearful that will just mean the Dragons spot and kill me quicker. On that point, what would anyone suggest as a good max range for the AIM 260JATM? It ought to be a game winner, I always feel, in this fight between F22 and Dragons, but it doesn't seem that way often. In the doctrine dropdown the max on offer is 100nm, but I've been picking 70nm, since I have rarely detected the Dragons at ranges longer than 50nm. I'm guessing the F22s need their radars on to fire this weapon, as they seem to snap them on or off briefly prior to launch regardless of my doctrine settings for radar. Thanks.

< Message edited by Phoenix100 -- 9/13/2021 8:49:01 AM >

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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/13/2021 11:10:39 AM   


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The F35 with JATM can take on the J20 pretty handily if managed well. My approach:

- Set your F35's to crank (not drag) after launching their missiles.

- Leave radars on. The LPI functionality on the AN/APG-81 seems to ensure its emissions only get detected by the J20s when they are already close.

- Leave OECM off - this will give the F35's presence away from a great distance. No problem backing them up with OECM emissions from supporting Growlers though. Technically you could activate it on the F35's shortly before the shooting starts, but I find this dicey as you don't want them cruising around with it on. Easy to flick the jammers on and then forget to turn it off again, making your accidental emitters more vulnerable to subsequent ambushes.

- Make sure the F35's launch two JATMs per J20, from as many aircraft as necessary to fill the quota (WRA)

- Leave a single F35 flight a good ~30nm behind your F35s doing the shooting. I generally set the shooters to cruise speed, max alt, with the "spotters" in the back travelling at loiter speed, max alt. That way they can take over providing guidance updates to outgoing JATM's if the shooters have to break lock during defensive manoeuvres.

- As soon as the J20's fire on the F35s (literally the second the hostile missile leaves the rail) tell the defending F35s to descend to absolute minimum altitude at cruise speed. More often than not the PL12/15s will fail to acquire the F35s in the terminal phase, or bite down on decoys. You can have them climb again when they are out of trouble, or pop up and down to fire on high bandits and then dive to defend any inbounds.

- Setting missile range shouldn't matter much - the launch range will generally be governed by the interaction of sig reduction and jamming effects, so typical missile shots will be some (often small) fraction of Rmax. The exception to this is CEC via datalink, where you can have an F35 close to the bandit providing missile cueing to a friend that is much further away. Keep the missiles firing at max range, as the JATM's terminals are modelled as very good even near Rmax. Just make sure your jets shoot them in pairs.

- Setting traps by using your 4th gens as bait is not a bad idea, so long as the bait jets can defend any inbound AAMs effectively. The PL15 is a nasty missile (arguably the best of its kind atm) and 4/4.5 gen aircraft will typically struggle to escape it.

- All of the above should apply for the Raptor too.

< Message edited by Boagrius -- 9/13/2021 11:43:54 AM >

(in reply to Phoenix100)
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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/13/2021 11:54:51 AM   


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Thanks Boagrius. I will maybe try some such micromanaging using those tactics - all very interesting stuff I didn't know. Usually though I never micromanage individual jets/combats etc, but just leave it all to the parameters set in the mission, mainly so that I'm not at a huge advantage vis a vis the AI, but also because I don't like micromanaging so much. It would be nice if such tactics could be part of the mission interface - a kind of doctrine screen for specific platforms/weapons. I suppose you could do it all with scripts but I haven't a clue how to do that and no real interest in learning about LUA. Leaving the radars on, oecm off, and the weapons settings at max I can do easily per mission though. I have been trying to use only 1 missile per launch because there are many more Dragons in this scenario (including the Vigorous Dragon, which seems less threatening than the Mighty variant, but still a real threat) than I have top level planes to deal with and if I let the Raptors and F35s fire off the standard 2 salvo (from internal only loadouts) then they're done, empty and RTB way before I'm anywhere near dealing with the threat.

(in reply to Boagrius)
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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/13/2021 11:59:26 AM   


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I myself have found the F-35 EO systems useful against LO adversaries. But as said above coordinating your various platforms and using your active and passive sensors in conjunction with jamming support should give you the edge you need.

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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 9/13/2021 12:31:29 PM   


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No problem. In that case only set your jets to fire 2 x JATM at 5th gen targets, and single-shot everything else. You might want to restrict your shots on 4-4.5gen targets to a shorter range though (say ~80nm) to up the SSpK a bit. Micromanaging is a hassle, but if the only thing you remember is to send your jets to minimum alt when shot at, your exchange rates should rise noticeably.

< Message edited by Boagrius -- 9/13/2021 10:27:59 PM >

(in reply to Phoenix100)
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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 10/21/2021 1:38:32 PM   


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IRST really makes a difference against LO AC. F18, F35, J20 all have it. However F22 does not have any. Hence giving F22 some F35 escort as scout is really important, even with F35 radar and OECM off.

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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 10/21/2021 6:19:20 PM   


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Basically anytime you have F-22\F-35 JATM loaded in a scenario, you can clear the sky. I love using editor, to add them to a difficult AA scenario to upset the apple cart(ie you have no chance to win with the odds the scenarios designer has set you with).

Assuming these things are as deadly in real life as they're modeled, I'd be rolling um out by the thousands from the factory.

(in reply to robertqin)
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RE: mighty drgaon v raptor (Carrier Hunt) - 10/21/2021 6:22:56 PM   


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ORIGINAL: robertqin
IRST really makes a difference against LO AC. F18, F35, J20 all have it. However F22 does not have any. Hence giving F22 some F35 escort as scout is really important, even with F35 radar and OECM off.

IRSTs are a bit overmodelled ATM. We are working on a number of tweaks that will more faithfully represent their drawbacks & idiosyncrasies.


(in reply to robertqin)
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