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Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 5:42:12 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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For those that haven't figured it out yet you can motorize your FBD's and convert extra rail hexes in a turn. Of course this was another reason I ban motorization in my games. Enjoy the show. Figured I would show everyone finally.




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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 5:43:38 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Here are the converted rail hexes. Don't know if this is the designers intent but you can do it. Thus why I ban motorization.




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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 5:45:00 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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This is just turn 1 of a practice game. Just think how many hexes I can do if the hexes were already friendly ;-)

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 5:45:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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But if your game is playing with Motorization then the Germans should be converting a metric sh*t ton of rail hexes. If you aren't you are doing something wrong.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 5:54:55 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Here are the converted rail hexes. Don't know if this is the designers intent but you can do it. Thus why I ban motorization.





If it IS the designers intent with motorization of FBD's then I will unban this for sure ;-) /evil laugh

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 5:58:58 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Pretty sure it's not working as intended and I'd be surprised if it is.
Then again I thought that on the Naval Evacuation / Transport business and instead it seems to be working as intended.

Anyhow I am not motorizing things in my games in general. And certainly a FBD movement is more tied to the working more than the having trucks to move personnel around - and I assume they've built in the trucks / machineries needed for the job.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 6:06:11 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Pretty sure it's not working as intended and I'd be surprised if it is.
Then again I thought that on the Naval Evacuation / Transport business and instead it seems to be working as intended.

Anyhow I am not motorizing things in my games in general. And certainly a FBD movement is more tied to the working more than the having trucks to move personnel around - and I assume they've built in the trucks / machineries needed for the job.


I really don't think that is the intent. But hey I am all ears on if it is or is not the intent to do so. :)

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 6:26:25 PM   
tyronec


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Yes, up to 16 hexes in a turn and for very little cost.
Well spotted, not a feature I hope anyone will use in any of my games.




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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 6:28:21 PM   
Q-Ball


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I'm sure it's not the intent, and also Exhibit #523 on why temp motorization needs to be limited or banned

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 6:36:24 PM   
Denniss

 

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I consider this a really bad bug

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/30/2021 6:46:48 PM   
xhoel


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This is a bug. Players should not use this feature as it is not WAD.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/31/2021 2:04:56 PM   
GibsonPete


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I consider this cheating. I am certain it will be fixed in a future patch. An excellent catch by HYLA.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/31/2021 10:46:02 PM   
Bamilus


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Just remove the mechanic entirely. Its not worth the hassle at this point.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 8/31/2021 11:02:19 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Just remove the mechanic entirely. Its not worth the hassle at this point.


I like the idea of temp motorization, especially since it realistically pulls trucks to accommodate the status, but I think it needs tweaks. Regular units shouldn’t match trained motorized formations mobility just by adding trucks.
I think in admin movement it should have regular motorized movement costs, but I’d give German inf a +1 MP cost in enemy territory (akin to brigades) and the Soviets a +2 MP cost for enemy territory to reflect these units don’t have the kind of training/exp in the pace of motorized operations.

And obviously restrict unit types that shouldn’t be able to motorize.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/1/2021 1:12:16 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Just remove the mechanic entirely. Its not worth the hassle at this point.


I like the idea of temp motorization, especially since it realistically pulls trucks to accommodate the status, but I think it needs tweaks. Regular units shouldn’t match trained motorized formations mobility just by adding trucks.
I think in admin movement it should have regular motorized movement costs, but I’d give German inf a +1 MP cost in enemy territory (akin to brigades) and the Soviets a +2 MP cost for enemy territory to reflect these units don’t have the kind of training/exp in the pace of motorized operations.

And obviously restrict unit types that shouldn’t be able to motorize.


It is in the game for the eventual War in Europe release to support the Americans I bet you who had a truck around every freaking corner. What better way to test it out now for that eventuality. Well that is my guess but makes sense why it seems the power to be want to keep it in :-)

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/1/2021 2:33:33 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

It is in the game for the eventual War in Europe release to support the Americans I bet you who had a truck around every freaking corner. What better way to test it out now for that eventuality. Well that is my guess but makes sense why it seems the power to be want to keep it in :-)


Temp motorization was in WitE, 14.1.3 in the manual.
There it doubled, not tripled movement AND "(u)nits that have been temporarily motorized may not attack, enter an enemy controlled hex, or move adjacent to an enemy unit. This simulates the unit being in column formation."
In WitE it wasn't as beneficial AND it seemed to have a steep price in guaranteed damaged vehicles:
"Additional vehicles required to fully mobilize the unit will be taken from the motor pool, but will be damaged at the end of the turn. "

It was in the last iteration of War in the West in basically the form it is now. Check 14.1.3 (yep, same section) in the manual:


All temporarily motorized units and Western Allies motorized infantry units (whether motorization is temporary or permanent) pay an additional +1 MPs when moving into an enemy controlled hex (in addition to normal costs).


I'd change the stakes on that extra cost for the Allies (including Soviets) to utilize it enemy territory.

< Message edited by Seminole -- 9/1/2021 2:36:18 AM >

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/1/2021 12:59:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

It is in the game for the eventual War in Europe release to support the Americans I bet you who had a truck around every freaking corner. What better way to test it out now for that eventuality. Well that is my guess but makes sense why it seems the power to be want to keep it in :-)


Temp motorization was in WitE, 14.1.3 in the manual.
There it doubled, not tripled movement AND "(u)nits that have been temporarily motorized may not attack, enter an enemy controlled hex, or move adjacent to an enemy unit. This simulates the unit being in column formation."
In WitE it wasn't as beneficial AND it seemed to have a steep price in guaranteed damaged vehicles:
"Additional vehicles required to fully mobilize the unit will be taken from the motor pool, but will be damaged at the end of the turn. "

It was in the last iteration of War in the West in basically the form it is now. Check 14.1.3 (yep, same section) in the manual:


All temporarily motorized units and Western Allies motorized infantry units (whether motorization is temporary or permanent) pay an additional +1 MPs when moving into an enemy controlled hex (in addition to normal costs).


I'd change the stakes on that extra cost for the Allies (including Soviets) to utilize it enemy territory.


Ya, you aren't going to get an argument from me on it the this feature needs some fine tuning. I may have only passed 1st grade but I know a bad feature when I see it implemented in game that will be exploited.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/1/2021 2:39:20 PM   
Bamilus


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I guess my point is if it cant get ironed out soon enough, just remove it until it can be. For WITW and a total europe game, definitely will be needed as mentioned above. For WITE yea it's historical but that war was still dominated by horses on both sides, so it's not completely immersion breaking to remove like it would be to remove ability of US forces in 1944 being able to motorize infantry at will.

EDIT: Don't want this to come across as criticism to devs, I have confidence it will get fixed, just talking about short term.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 9/1/2021 4:01:52 PM >


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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/1/2021 4:19:05 PM   
GibsonPete


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Temp motorization should not be removed. In a HvH game let the players decide. Against the computer let the human decide. IMHO, motorizing an FBD is an exploit an expensive exploit but still an exploit. Temp motorization of a large number of Divisions is a mistake that will gain you little. Let the players decide how to play their game. We all know the exploit found HYLA will be handled.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/1/2021 5:45:41 PM   
Bamilus


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The problem is you're leaving it up to trusting some random person. I get people can say "well if you don't trust your opponent then don't play them", well playing MP in this game is a huge time investment. I'm not going to play with someone I only met on the internet if they can abuse an exploit and potentially waste dozens of hours of my time. And I don't know anyone in real life who plays this game, so.....

I think it's a really piss-poor excuse to just lay it on the players for something this serious. There's a reason why competitive games have anti-exploit systems and mechanisms in their games. At a minimum give us an option in the settings to disable it so you have know going into a game it can't be utilized.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 9/1/2021 5:47:23 PM >


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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/2/2021 2:24:49 AM   
GibsonPete


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I made a suggestion in a previous post that temp motorization be made an option in the preference or options menu. Would that satisfy 'trust' issues and allow all the freedom to play the way they wish.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/2/2021 2:36:38 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

IMHO, motorizing an FBD is an exploit an expensive exploit but still an exploit.


It's an oversight by the devs that didn't come up in testing (plenty of testers have commented in this thread already).

There isn't a reasonable explanation that providing some trucks to an FBD is going to make them work 3x faster.

I would be disappointed in an opponent exploiting this.

I suspect it will be resolved soon in a patch.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/2/2021 3:39:06 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

The problem is you're leaving it up to trusting some random person. I get people can say "well if you don't trust your opponent then don't play them", well playing MP in this game is a huge time investment. I'm not going to play with someone I only met on the internet if they can abuse an exploit and potentially waste dozens of hours of my time. And I don't know anyone in real life who plays this game, so.....

I think it's a really piss-poor excuse to just lay it on the players for something this serious. There's a reason why competitive games have anti-exploit systems and mechanisms in their games. At a minimum give us an option in the settings to disable it so you have know going into a game it can't be utilized.


Disable or remove it entirely.

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RE: Motorization TIP - 9/5/2021 5:25:40 AM   
Joel Billings


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An obvious bug caused by the fact that FBD units are the only non-motorized HQs in the game, so no one thought to put a block on motorizing a not-motorized HQ. We will block it. Players should not do it.

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