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[ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs to go

 
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[ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs to go - 8/20/2021 2:25:21 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1264
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline
The entire Tech needs redone.

1) Spying & Intelligence completely ruins the game. The balance is completely outta whack. I have no choice but to play cookie cutter with it. What would I do? S&I does not help nor hinder the other sides Tech advances. It only shows units on the board and create something new.
2) NO MORE SELLING TECH. Yeah, I'm shouting about it. Beginning every game, it's a garage sale on Ebay, just dump the worthless crap. Load up on Infantry, Spying, & few combat items. We've already covered the cookie cutter shopping list enough.



< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 9/14/2021 5:53:21 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Spying & Intelligence needs to go (ironic comment);... - 9/14/2021 5:52:43 AM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1264
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline
*** bump ***

This needs fixed. Spying & Intelligence ruins the game. Hamburger Meat invoked this in the beginning. Sell all the tech, go all-in for Spying & Intelligence for German super tanks. Too many players use this, ruins the game.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 2
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 1:26:22 PM   
csiemers

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 2/8/2014
Status: offline
2) How about no pre-purchased tech? Maybe have an appropriate amount of purchase points for a player that they can spend on adding completed level(s) at the start of the scenario. Then after turn one it goes to the normal purchasing/building of tech.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 3
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 2:40:04 PM   
DrZom

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
Have pity on the new player. There is so much to learn that it can be a blessing that tech research has been decided for him to start. Perhaps csiemers' suggestion could be be implemented as an option for the more seasoned player.

(in reply to csiemers)
Post #: 4
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 7:53:26 PM   
Chernobyl

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 8/27/2012
Status: offline
Regarding S+I I do have a variety of minor gripes with the detection ability it gives. It really penalizes attempting to surprise your opponent with unexpected naval unit placement or naval invasions. If I'm not mistaken it also causes air units to die sometimes, simply because spotted air units can be quite vulnerable to bombing/strafing.

I don't like that the spotting % is increased for every major that has S+I. For example if you have USSR UK and USA all with level 3 Spying, that's a 9% chance of spotting every axis unit every turn. Not sure how relevant that is in a competitive match, but in theory if somehow the Axis had a relevant fleet in the very late game, it wouldn't stand a chance of maneuvering out at sea undetected. It should be capped at one major's limit, total.

I also think 3% is too high.

Perhaps the Allies could get some "ULTRA" event at some point in the game for history's sake, perhaps on a random turn? I don't think it would be a good idea to try to model ULTRA's historical impact, simply for balance reasons. But a modest event would be more flavorful than the status quo of level 0/1/2/3 S+I tech for both sides.

You can also mod the game to eliminate S+I and starting game tech selling.
The only problems would be:
1)doing the work to mod it (or asking me to do it)
2)updating the mod for new versions of the game
3)getting an opponent to agree to play your mod

(in reply to DrZom)
Post #: 5
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 8:23:33 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


Posts: 868
Joined: 7/2/2020
From: Republic of Cascadia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Regarding S+I I do have a variety of minor gripes with the detection ability it gives. It really penalizes attempting to surprise your opponent with unexpected naval unit placement or naval invasions. If I'm not mistaken it also causes air units to die sometimes, simply because spotted air units can be quite vulnerable to bombing/strafing.

I don't like that the spotting % is increased for every major that has S+I. For example if you have USSR UK and USA all with level 3 Spying, that's a 9% chance of spotting every axis unit every turn. Not sure how relevant that is in a competitive match, but in theory if somehow the Axis had a relevant fleet in the very late game, it wouldn't stand a chance of maneuvering out at sea undetected. It should be capped at one major's limit, total.

I also think 3% is too high.

Perhaps the Allies could get some "ULTRA" event at some point in the game for history's sake, perhaps on a random turn? I don't think it would be a good idea to try to model ULTRA's historical impact, simply for balance reasons. But a modest event would be more flavorful than the status quo of level 0/1/2/3 S+I tech for both sides.

You can also mod the game to eliminate S+I and starting game tech selling.
The only problems would be:
1)doing the work to mod it (or asking me to do it)
2)updating the mod for new versions of the game
3)getting an opponent to agree to play your mod

This is all good. Should be implemented in the vanilla non-mod version.
Very good point about the intel part and navy 'discoveries' btw. Seen this many times...in clusters of close proximity also. A cap of 2% sounds right...maybe 3%..maybe.

_____________________________


(in reply to Chernobyl)
Post #: 6
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 8:39:26 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

Posts: 504
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline
Maybe change trade-in value for initial techs to 25% instead of 50%?

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)
Post #: 7
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 8:39:45 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1264
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline
Germans who buy into Panzer + S/I with 2chits will have Panzer level #3 against Russians who struggle to get level #2 Infantry and level #2. Game is over.

The strategy been discussed many times as the SuperTank, created by Hamburger Hill, one of the top players. I've been asskicked many times, I just surrender, it's a joke. Panzers dishing 5/6 damage against anything and indestructible like some Nazi Zombie Movie

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)
Post #: 8
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 10:16:51 PM   
Chernobyl

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 8/27/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo
Germans who buy into Panzer + S/I with 2chits will have Panzer level #3 against Russians who struggle to get level #2 Infantry and level #2.


Does S+I affect Russian tech speed assuming UK keeps pace with German S+I?
Perhaps Germans should have a slighty delay to availability of Advanced Tanks research, say a few months? The problem is that the Germans REALLY want to have Advanced Tank and Infantry Weapons tech level 2 a turn before Barbarossa at the LATEST, which assuming no 1940 Barbarossa is probably May 1941. However with lucky German breakthroughs (and no lucky Soviet Infantry Weapons breakthroughs) you could easily face German supertanks and be stuck at level 1 infantry tech for too long to have a chance.

It's considerations like these that make me really dislike the breakthrough "feature". There's no fun in tech unpredictability when certain techs are absolutely necessary (not a choice, a requirement) and they NEED to be finished by a certain date, while you also NEED your opponent to not get "too lucky" with multiple tank tech breakthroughs.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 9
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/14/2021 10:42:09 PM   
Chernobyl

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 8/27/2012
Status: offline
I'd like to change how breakthroughs work (either eliminate them or increase their frequency while dramatically reducing their effect), but I don't think there's a way to do that in the editor.

At minimum you could increase the breakthrough chance (from 5% to say 10% per chit) and halve their effect (from +10-20% research to +5-10% research) but even this keeps the possibility open that you lose a game largely to bad luck.

I honestly feel that eliminating tech breakthroughs entirely is better, at least for critical techs like Infantry Weapons and Advanced Tanks.

(in reply to Chernobyl)
Post #: 10
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/15/2021 2:27:51 AM   
ThisEndUp

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 6/24/2020
Status: offline
I agree that tech breakthrough is way too strong for something that is purely RNG. Having no agency over something so game-changing is neither fun nor fair.

(in reply to Chernobyl)
Post #: 11
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/15/2021 6:22:41 AM   
EarlyDoors


Posts: 489
Joined: 12/16/2018
From: uk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Regarding S+I I do have a variety of minor gripes with the detection ability it gives. It really penalizes attempting to surprise your opponent with unexpected naval unit placement or naval invasions. If I'm not mistaken it also causes air units to die sometimes, simply because spotted air units can be quite vulnerable to bombing/strafing.

I don't like that the spotting % is increased for every major that has S+I. For example if you have USSR UK and USA all with level 3 Spying, that's a 9% chance of spotting every axis unit every turn. Not sure how relevant that is in a competitive match, but in theory if somehow the Axis had a relevant fleet in the very late game, it wouldn't stand a chance of maneuvering out at sea undetected. It should be capped at one major's limit, total.

I also think 3% is too high.

Perhaps the Allies could get some "ULTRA" event at some point in the game for history's sake, perhaps on a random turn? I don't think it would be a good idea to try to model ULTRA's historical impact, simply for balance reasons. But a modest event would be more flavorful than the status quo of level 0/1/2/3 S+I tech for both sides.

You can also mod the game to eliminate S+I and starting game tech selling.
The only problems would be:
1)doing the work to mod it (or asking me to do it)
2)updating the mod for new versions of the game
3)getting an opponent to agree to play your mod


As the Allies this is not a strategy I ever have the mpp to pursue.
It is much more likely for USA level 3, UK level 1 and USSR level 0

Only late game if the USSR have held and have all other techs do they have the opportunity to purchase S + I

I have in the past pursued a high UK S +I strategy to try and slow German research only to fail due to lack of units

But I’m in a game being steamrolled by Thunderlizard (axis) who must have lvl 3 S + I because he’s had level 3/4 panzers since 42 and lvl 5 jets since 44

I’m gonna have to raise the priority of UK S + I in my defensive game

_____________________________

14-16 PBEM++
-----------
Honours the game
-----------
http://scwaw-rankings.s3-website.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com

(in reply to Chernobyl)
Post #: 12
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/15/2021 6:33:38 AM   
EarlyDoors


Posts: 489
Joined: 12/16/2018
From: uk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I'd like to change how breakthroughs work (either eliminate them or increase their frequency while dramatically reducing their effect), but I don't think there's a way to do that in the editor.

At minimum you could increase the breakthrough chance (from 5% to say 10% per chit) and halve their effect (from +10-20% research to +5-10% research) but even this keeps the possibility open that you lose a game largely to bad luck.

I honestly feel that eliminating tech breakthroughs entirely is better, at least for critical techs like Infantry Weapons and Advanced Tanks.


I never understood why breakthrough was changed from only being possible after the tech had achieved 40% level to possibly occurring at any time?
A reversion to 40% level would reduce the number of breakthroughs and stop some from occurring to soon.

_____________________________

14-16 PBEM++
-----------
Honours the game
-----------
http://scwaw-rankings.s3-website.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com

(in reply to Chernobyl)
Post #: 13
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/15/2021 8:47:43 PM   
DrZom

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

There's no fun in tech unpredictability when certain techs are absolutely necessary (not a choice, a requirement) and they NEED to be finished by a certain date, while you also NEED your opponent to not get "too lucky" with multiple tank tech breakthroughs.


With all due respect, you are precisely wrong. Uncertainty is what makes a game worth playing, what makes it fun. I don't think an exercise with complete predictability can even be called a game.

I understand the frustration of not realizing one's plans due to randomness of events, but you know what Clausewitz said about plans. (Or was it Moltke?)

(in reply to Chernobyl)
Post #: 14
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/15/2021 10:12:43 PM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 861
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: online
IMO compared to weather most of these things are fine from a randomness stand point. Weather by far seems to trump all and can easily decide a game where getting a tech a few turns earlier or later isn't nearly as impactful.

(in reply to DrZom)
Post #: 15
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/16/2021 1:23:56 PM   
petedalby

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/18/2020
Status: offline
I would caution against this proposal - sorry Elvis. S&I is a lottery. Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't - a bit like Diplomacy.

The other accepted ELO house rules are transparent. If someone breaks one you are entitled to call foul. Tech is hidden. So if someone gets lucky with a Tech breakthrough it could cause ill-feeling if you'd agreed to leave it alone.

Personally I buy Tank Tech as the Germans as soon as I can. Typically this gives me Lvl 2 before Barbarossa and Lvl 3 at some point in '42. Only very rarely have I reached Lvl 3 in '41.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 16
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/16/2021 3:38:04 PM   
Elessar2


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline
Quick history lesson: Tech used to be COMPLETELY random. You would have say a 5% chance of an advance per turn. You could get it that turn, or be stuck waiting for 2-3 years. If you think things are bad now...

When we switched to incremental advances the breakthrough used to be automatic, zipping all the way to 100% in a single turn...

quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors


I never understood why breakthrough was changed from only being possible after the tech had achieved 40% level to possibly occurring at any time?
A reversion to 40% level would reduce the number of breakthroughs and stop some from occurring to soon.


...then it did have to be 40% before any breakthroughs (the older --->100% way or the newer 10-20% way). Not sure when or why this got changed.

We already have tons of choices in the editor (and believe me that can be overwhelming as it is). I do wish we had some more along these lines (c.f. the S&I debate as well).



(in reply to EarlyDoors)
Post #: 17
RE: [ELO House Rule needed] Spying & Intelligence needs... - 9/17/2021 3:58:03 AM   
ThunderLizard2

 

Posts: 504
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Regarding S+I I do have a variety of minor gripes with the detection ability it gives. It really penalizes attempting to surprise your opponent with unexpected naval unit placement or naval invasions. If I'm not mistaken it also causes air units to die sometimes, simply because spotted air units can be quite vulnerable to bombing/strafing.

I don't like that the spotting % is increased for every major that has S+I. For example if you have USSR UK and USA all with level 3 Spying, that's a 9% chance of spotting every axis unit every turn. Not sure how relevant that is in a competitive match, but in theory if somehow the Axis had a relevant fleet in the very late game, it wouldn't stand a chance of maneuvering out at sea undetected. It should be capped at one major's limit, total.

I also think 3% is too high.

Perhaps the Allies could get some "ULTRA" event at some point in the game for history's sake, perhaps on a random turn? I don't think it would be a good idea to try to model ULTRA's historical impact, simply for balance reasons. But a modest event would be more flavorful than the status quo of level 0/1/2/3 S+I tech for both sides.

You can also mod the game to eliminate S+I and starting game tech selling.
The only problems would be:
1)doing the work to mod it (or asking me to do it)
2)updating the mod for new versions of the game
3)getting an opponent to agree to play your mod


As the Allies this is not a strategy I ever have the mpp to pursue.
It is much more likely for USA level 3, UK level 1 and USSR level 0

Only late game if the USSR have held and have all other techs do they have the opportunity to purchase S + I

I have in the past pursued a high UK S +I strategy to try and slow German research only to fail due to lack of units

But I’m in a game being steamrolled by Thunderlizard (axis) who must have lvl 3 S + I because he’s had level 3/4 panzers since 42 and lvl 5 jets since 44

I’m gonna have to raise the priority of UK S + I in my defensive game


Yes I did get lvl 3 S&I as priority in last match. I've only done UK S&I lvl because they start with 1 chit.

(in reply to EarlyDoors)
Post #: 18
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