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1939 World at War scenario and AI

 
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1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/10/2021 1:36:12 AM   
DavidDailey

 

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Bearing in mind that I am not a computer programmer and don't know anything about writing code I am curious about the following: 1. What exactly does the AI do? More specifically, does it just command the opposing forces in a single player game or does it have a role in human only games? 2. If so, what is that role? 3. Does the AI operate identically in all the scenarios in the game or are the decisions made say in a patch affect only the AI in the 1939 scenario? 4. Do the designers have a sense that most players play against the AI and having a competitive AI is of paramount importance? 5. Could the 1939 scenario be replicated as a human versus human variant and the AI eliminated or limited to purely administrative functions? Thank you.
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RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/10/2021 1:40:02 AM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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The AI has no role in MP games. As far as what it does, it does command all opposing forces and there's an option to allow it to control 1 or more of your forces as well so you can plat Axis and have the AI control Italy. There's been more features added to this to lock certain units so the AI can't move them.

(in reply to DavidDailey)
Post #: 2
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/10/2021 12:23:10 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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Joined: 5/31/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidDailey

Bearing in mind that I am not a computer programmer and don't know anything about writing code I am curious about the following: 1. What exactly does the AI do? More specifically, does it just command the opposing forces in a single player game or does it have a role in human only games? 2. If so, what is that role? 3. Does the AI operate identically in all the scenarios in the game or are the decisions made say in a patch affect only the AI in the 1939 scenario? 4. Do the designers have a sense that most players play against the AI and having a competitive AI is of paramount importance? 5. Could the 1939 scenario be replicated as a human versus human variant and the AI eliminated or limited to purely administrative functions? Thank you.


The AI controls nations you don't. Simple as that. If you start a game as the allies, the AI will play all the axis powers. If you deselect countries on your side the AI will control them as well. This means you can play as the USA and leave the CW to fend for itself. However, you can always jump in and move your allies about when the AI acts dumb.

I'm not sure why the AI would be involved in a human only game. Can you explain?




(in reply to DavidDailey)
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RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/10/2021 11:20:02 PM   
Elessar2


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The AI is heavily scripted and is completely hopeless without them; each scenario typically has specific unique scripts. Change the scripts and you can change what its likely moves will be. It still has its issues (land units often attack at low odds, leaving themselves open to counterattacks on the opponent's turn; it often has a hard time forming a solid line, often overeinforcing certain sectors of the front while leaving others undermanned; it is often careless with HQs & air units, allowing them to get easily overrun; and the naval AI has many issues, such as exiling damaged ships to minor out of the way ports where they sit for the rest of the game).

wobbleguts, he is probably alluding to certain operational-level games where you give your units general orders, and the AI tries its best to execute them locally (WitP being a very good example, tho it is Wego not Igo/Ugo)

(in reply to wobbleguts)
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RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/12/2021 2:45:29 AM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

...to lock certain units so the AI can't move them.



Didn't know this. Can you tell how?

(in reply to ThunderLizard2)
Post #: 5
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/14/2021 1:50:37 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

...to lock certain units so the AI can't move them.



Didn't know this. Can you tell how?


Never used it. Try putting in sleep mode? Maybe a dev can chime in with instructions.

(in reply to Cpuncher)
Post #: 6
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/14/2021 6:05:23 PM   
Zeckke

 

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the AI cheats if you play level high; the AI build with no limit

(in reply to ThunderLizard2)
Post #: 7
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/16/2021 7:10:25 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

The AI is heavily scripted and is completely hopeless without them; each scenario typically has specific unique scripts. Change the scripts and you can change what its likely moves will be. It still has its issues (land units often attack at low odds, leaving themselves open to counterattacks on the opponent's turn; it often has a hard time forming a solid line, often overeinforcing certain sectors of the front while leaving others undermanned; it is often careless with HQs & air units, allowing them to get easily overrun; and the naval AI has many issues, such as exiling damaged ships to minor out of the way ports where they sit for the rest of the game).

wobbleguts, he is probably alluding to certain operational-level games where you give your units general orders, and the AI tries its best to execute them locally (WitP being a very good example, tho it is Wego not Igo/Ugo)


Attacking at low odds (at times) is unfortunately purposeful. The AI can easily understand attack odds, however the criticisms early on were that the AI was not doing much, e.g. often the best move for the Allied AI for Poland and France was to not attack and instead consolidate its lines forcing the Axis forward to take losses etc., but this was changed in order to change the perception that the AI was more actively involved even if to its own detriment by making some low odd attacks.

_____________________________


(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 8
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/16/2021 7:15:20 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeckke
the AI cheats if you play level high; the AI build with no limit


To clarify here, the AI still plays with the same build limit rules as a human player, however at the harder difficulty settings it may receive additional bonus units via UNIT scripts.

This is a purposeful element of the design for the various difficulty levels and can be accessed and modified at any time in game by turning off these AI bonus unit script as desired.

Simply navigate to OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS and then select the UNIT category. The AI bonus unit scripts are all labelled per difficulty level as well as the units it will receive and location. They can be turned on or off along the right side of the panel and start near the last few pages of UNIT scripts.

Hope this helps,
Hubert


_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/17/2021 2:59:10 AM   
Cpuncher

 

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/26/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

...to lock certain units so the AI can't move them.



Didn't know this. Can you tell how?


Never used it. Try putting in sleep mode? Maybe a dev can chime in with instructions.


Putting in sleep mode doesn't work. Thought you knew. This feature will be greatly appreciated if available.

(in reply to ThunderLizard2)
Post #: 10
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/17/2021 3:36:30 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4072
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

The AI is heavily scripted and is completely hopeless without them; each scenario typically has specific unique scripts. Change the scripts and you can change what its likely moves will be. It still has its issues (land units often attack at low odds, leaving themselves open to counterattacks on the opponent's turn; it often has a hard time forming a solid line, often overeinforcing certain sectors of the front while leaving others undermanned; it is often careless with HQs & air units, allowing them to get easily overrun; and the naval AI has many issues, such as exiling damaged ships to minor out of the way ports where they sit for the rest of the game).

wobbleguts, he is probably alluding to certain operational-level games where you give your units general orders, and the AI tries its best to execute them locally (WitP being a very good example, tho it is Wego not Igo/Ugo)


Attacking at low odds (at times) is unfortunately purposeful. The AI can easily understand attack odds, however the criticisms early on were that the AI was not doing much, e.g. often the best move for the Allied AI for Poland and France was to not attack and instead consolidate its lines forcing the Axis forward to take losses etc., but this was changed in order to change the perception that the AI was more actively involved even if to its own detriment by making some low odd attacks.


Hmm not sure this was the best change as it impedes the AI. Would it be possible to program the AI only to do this if is going to attack the same unit with multiple units?

_____________________________


(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 11
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/17/2021 6:23:41 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 5000
Joined: 7/22/2013
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Agreed and it is a challenging one to get just right perception wise, e.g. first time through the game and if the AI only attacks when the odds favour it, it then feels like something is wrong with the AI as it can often be doing nothing other than consolidating. Imagine very few ground attacks from Polish or French land/air units (if any at all) etc., which happened in some games during Beta or early access reviews and many took this to mean the AI didn't know what it was doing as it felt like it was just "sitting there".

Several play throughs later and the AI then feels poor because it is seen attacking when it is not wise to always do so, e.g. after newer players start to understand that Poland and France are essentially doomed and it is better to have the Axis take losses on their own and not make things easier for them via poor Polish and French attacks that disproportionately hurt the Allies more than the other way around.

Perhaps in future versions of the game we can have the AI play a certain way for the first few games, and then another way after players have had several games under their belt.



_____________________________


(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 12
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/17/2021 9:20:59 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4072
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater
Perhaps in future versions of the game we can have the AI play a certain way for the first few games, and then another way after players have had several games under their belt.


That seems like a lot of unnecessary work to me. I personally prefer the AI to play to it's best potential whether I am just learning or a veteran player. I also prefer the AI to play at it's best perception or not. I get that players want to see attacks but Poland and France are supposed to be defensive at that time not offensive. Same with early Russia and China. Any competent human player would be on the defensive as well. The AI should not be on the offensive until it has a chance to do so. I'm surprised any veteran players of this game would complain about the AI doing this. Just my 2 cents.


< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/17/2021 9:22:28 PM >


_____________________________


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Post #: 13
RE: 1939 World at War scenario and AI - 8/19/2021 6:17:36 PM   
Zeckke

 

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Joined: 8/6/2021
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am a experience player playing big objectives like japan defeat at the same time; china india russia and USA (desembark at new york) as you can do it gamesended at 1947 (with the extra limit 10 turns)

in other hands playing allys i always beat and conquer and defeat japan with china with no help of USA (United States need to helps the britain in Europe)

so at this point i have absolutly teach the AI in my CP and now at this point the AI as allys is no limit for the AI building tons of ship and troops in all my games i have to defeat more than 130 units of any big enemy.

so the point is that the AI Strategic comand learn each game it looses and makes harder and harder new games

now in my late game, have the problem with the AI, invading great britain, URSS declare war on german in november 1940, well; japan has the key an earlier victory on chinese

so the AI remenber each game you played and learn about his defeat The AI what it does is produce industrial and technology as first.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 14
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