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Maskirovka - 8/8/2021 5:26:46 PM   
ncc1701e


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How is Maskirovka implemented in this game?

Is there some radio deception simulated to make the Germans think that tank armies are in the sector whereas they are not?
Is there a possibility to simulate false offensive build up on the map?

On the contrary, how could you do a local military build up for an offensive while hiding it to your opponent?

Russians were very good in late war to do this. Just wonder how it works in this game.

Thanks

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
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RE: Maskirovka - 8/8/2021 5:58:48 PM   
thedoctorking


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The principal way you find out about the location of your opponent's units is through air recon or being adjacent to them on the map (assuming fog of war is in effect). At the beginning of the game, the Germans have a huge advantage in air recon, both number of planes and skill of pilots. As the war goes on, this changes. Gaining local air superiority over the area where you are going to make an offensive is an important part of your preparations in general, and will have the effect of limiting enemy air recon. Putting the best fighter squadrons you have into elite fighter divisions (GIAD) and then assigning those AOG's to the air army responsible for the sector where you are going to launch your offensive, then putting them on Air Superiority missions over your guys is a good step. But in answer to your specific question, I have noticed from time to time that I get information about enemy units behind the lines even when I didn't run air recon missions there. I don't know exactly how that information becomes available, if this is an attempt to simulate the effect of general intelligence efforts (including both human and electronic sources) and I'm not aware of anything you can do to increase the chance of getting that kind of information or denying it to your opponent.

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/8/2021 7:40:57 PM   
loki100


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Its all very indirect but there are some tricks.

Hiding formations in poor terrain, pulling them well to the rear and then returning to the front (units seem to retain some DL even after leaving the front lines) are valid ways to build up out of sight.

the best way to fake a build up is to stack rifle brigades, its very unlikely the axis post-42 will get air recon over what is needed to see its an infantry formation, so this can look impressive even when it has no offensive value.

Its worth bearing in mind that both sides managed strategic/operational surprises quite simply because the other side ignored all the clues. All the decision making literature around framing (apols this is my PhD stuff) comes into play here - quite often they didn't want to believe what they could see and interpreted it in a different way. There is plenty of egs of both sides making the decision they wanted to make rather than the one the evidence indicated.

One that stands out is Hitler in Jan 45 declaring the Soviets couldn't mount a sustained offensive as their rifle divisions were around/under 6,000 men. Perfectly true, but utterly irrelevant to any sane interpretation of Scviet capacity and intentions.

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/8/2021 9:00:57 PM   
ncc1701e


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Sometimes the other side was ignoring the clues but, several times, this was absolutely not the case.

Just this example:
quote:


The first offensive to have its own deception operation was in Zhukov's part of the attack on the Rzhev-Vyazma salient to the west of Moscow in July and August, 1942. The offensive was conducted by Ivan Konev's Kalinin Front on the north, and Zhukov's Western Front with 31st Army and 20th Army on the south. Zhukov decided to simulate a concentration of forces some 200 kilometres (120 mi) to the south near Yukhnov, in the sector of his 43rd, 49th and 50th Armies. He created two deception operation staffs in that sector, and allocated 4 deception (maskirovka) companies, 3 rifle companies, 122 vehicles, 9 tanks and other equipment including radios for the deception. These forces built 833 dummy tanks, guns, vehicles, field kitchens and fuel tanks, and used their real and dummy equipment to simulate the unloading of armies from a railhead at Myatlevo, and the concentration of armour and motorized infantry as if preparing to attack Yukhnov. The radios communicated false traffic between the simulated armies and Front headquarters. The real tanks and other vehicles made tracks like those of troop columns. When the Luftwaffe attacked, the deception units returned fire and lit bottles of fuel to simulate fires. The deception had the immediate effect of increasing Luftwaffe air strikes against the railhead and false concentration area, while the two railheads actually in use were not attacked, and the Wehrmacht moved three Panzer divisions and one motorized infantry division of XL Panzer Corps to the Yukhnov area. Meanwhile, the real troop concentration to the north was conducted at night and in thick forests. Zhukov's attack began on 4 August, and the 20th and 31st Armies advanced 40 kilometres (25 mi) in two days. The Russians claimed that surprise had been achieved; this is confirmed by the fact that German intelligence failed to notice Zhukov's concentration of 20th and 31st Armies on Rzhev. Other small offensives on the same front had poorly planned and executed deception measures, but these were largely unsuccessful. The successful deception for the attack on Rzhev showed that military deception could be effective, but that only certain Red Army commanders applied it correctly.


Is there a possibility to do the same thing in the game?

Are there deception companies, or an equivalent, attached to HQ that could do this kind of simulation of dummy armies for the enemy view of the battlefield map?

And notice that the concentration of two real armies was unnoticed by the Germans (done at night and in forests). They were not well to the rear. They were there silently waiting. Is there no command on an HQ to say to adopt a hiding posture or to pass yourself for something else if you have the needed deception companies with you?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/9/2021 9:38:30 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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At start of the war Red Army had about 18 engineer regiments that had in own composition maskirovka company (maskirovochnaya rota). During first months most of these engineer regiments was disbanded and their sub-units was used to form separate smaller size units or was used as separate support units at army/front level.
24th Army report about engineer units on 29.07.41 - https://cdnc.pamyat-naroda.ru/pamyat/219-0000679-0007/00000108.jpg
There is 3rd maskirovka company that has TOE 181/180 men.

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/9/2021 11:41:35 AM   
AlbertN

 

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I think that boils down to routines that are well under player control.

You have recon in game, with some recon skill relevant to the quality of pilots. (I am not sure if the 'camera' tools of the airframe have any impact there).
As pointed out above, at times one just recon units but without understanding / gaining knowledge of what a unit is in its specifics.


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RE: Maskirovka - 8/13/2021 8:08:57 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

You have recon in game, with some recon skill relevant to the quality of pilots. (I am not sure if the 'camera' tools of the airframe have any impact there).
As pointed out above, at times one just recon units but without understanding / gaining knowledge of what a unit is in its specifics.


Yes but here I would like to give hints of something that does not exist. This is the art of Russian military deception.
Is it impossible in this computer game?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/13/2021 8:34:49 PM   
ajds

 

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There are many die rolls in each combat - if you wish, consider favorable rolls for the Soviets to be the result of maskirovka.

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/14/2021 12:24:05 AM   
IanW

 

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Loki's suggestion of stacking rifle brigades.

The enemy's partial recon will show two stacks of three units, which could be a hundred and fifty combat factors of guard rifle corps.

In reality, it's six rifle brigades worth maybe eight combat factors.

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/14/2021 2:45:59 PM   
ncc1701e


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Ok thanks, so this is not possible to create dummy armies.

Is it at least possible to perform night moves of land units to avoid detection and bring undetected units on the frontline?

Thanks

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to IanW)
Post #: 10
RE: Maskirovka - 8/14/2021 3:19:11 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Ok thanks, so this is not possible to create dummy armies.

Is it at least possible to perform night moves of land units to avoid detection and bring undetected units on the frontline?

Thanks


no - the game scale is a week.

that sort of stuff is assumed to be done as a standard routine.

There are plenty of ways to try and misdirect your opponent in the game as it stands, no need for special rules just use the tools that exist

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RE: Maskirovka - 8/14/2021 4:03:42 PM   
cmunson


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I don't do it but you can create dummy armies as the Soviets. Early on you can build almost unlimited divisions and brigades. Set their max TOE to 15% and you can move your dummy army around as you see fit. I rely on Germans poor recon capabilities late 1942 onward and don't concentrate troops until 1-2 turns before an offensive to a position 1-2 hexes back from front. Typically these armies are staged in refit 8-10 hexes back from the front before moving forward. In good terrain you can station a tank army several hexes back (away from prying eyes) and still have a lot of running room once offensive begins. Surprise is not always my goal as sometimes I want Germans to concentrate where an offensive will come. Soviets usually have multiple offensives planned and I seldom launch an offensive along the entire front but rather stage them one turn after another. The last one to launch is the one I let Germans have most visibility on.

I would think if you added "intelligence reports" to the game with possible errors most players would ignore as they will rely on the knowledge of their opponents proclivities and their own eyes.



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RE: Maskirovka - 8/14/2021 4:13:56 PM   
GibsonPete


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"I would think if you added "intelligence reports" to the game with possible errors most players would ignore as they will rely on the knowledge of their opponents proclivities and their own eyes."

You mean just like in real life. Leaders almost always misjudge the intelligence. Human nature. You see what you wish not what is.

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