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Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 8:34:48 AM   
davidc


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Jan-Feb 1940
Italy declare war on France and CW
Italy attack Nice
Z1007 flies ground support with 3 factors doubled to 6
Germany decides to help out and flies He111 with 3 factors on extended range which gets doubled to 3?






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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 8:35:52 AM   
davidc


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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 8:41:18 AM   
davidc


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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 8:44:07 AM   
Joseignacio


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FYI, extended range divides power by 2. So you get (3 + 1,5)x2 =9

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 10:23:09 AM   
Courtenay


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There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 12:11:01 PM   
Joseignacio


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Right.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 10:38:25 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/3/2021 11:20:01 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.


Is that so? never heard that before.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/4/2021 3:18:27 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.


Is that so? never heard that before.


RAW:

Bombers controlled by a major power declaring war, double their
ground support factors (see 11.16.4) if the only land units in the target
hex are surprised units.


So the Italian bombers are doubled, the German ones are not. And if the defender intercepts, only German bombers can be attacked by them. Italian ones are automatically cleared through in that case.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/5/2021 1:23:56 PM   
davidc


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Finally Centuur, someone who can read the rules.
That is what the issue is.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/5/2021 11:49:05 PM   
paulderynck


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Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/6/2021 2:06:51 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

Paul, you read this rule differently than I do. I see no reason why you can not be surprised and not surprised at the same time.

I play that the Italians get surprise benefits, the Germans don't. The presence of the German plane means that interception of the attacking aircraft is legal, though, involving all Axis planes. Also, in a naval combat the presence of a non-surprising enemy unit means you aren't surprised.

This question is not asked in my copy of the FAQ.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/6/2021 3:24:08 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

Paul, you read this rule differently than I do. I see no reason why you can not be surprised and not surprised at the same time.

I play that the Italians get surprise benefits, the Germans don't. The presence of the German plane means that interception of the attacking aircraft is legal, though, involving all Axis planes. Also, in a naval combat the presence of a non-surprising enemy unit means you aren't surprised.

This question is not asked in my copy of the FAQ.


I read that sentence too. If you read this exactly how it's stated, it means that only units of the major power which DoW'ed this impulse get any benefits.
In the rules or the FAQ there is no mentioning of any restriction for ground support by aircraft of the DoW'ing major power if there are other major power bombers included in that attack. Therefore, in the example, any Italian bomber has to be automatically cleared through and will be doubled during ground support. It doesn't matter if there are German ones added too.

In RAW section 15, you can't find any rule which says you cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. On the contrary: you can! If a combined stack of Italian and German units attack in this example across a river, the Italian one isn't halved and the German one is. However, in such a case the defending player can add ground support...

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/6/2021 11:21:22 PM   
paulderynck


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Q: Why can he add ground support if he's surprised? A: Ahh, because he's surprised but he's not surprised all at the same time. Amazing.

It states in the rules there is no surprise if a unit (that otherwise would get a surprise benefit) overflies hexes controlled by a country the victim is already at war with.

Does it make any sense that the victim knows not to be surprised in that case and yet is surprised in the situations you describe?

Knowing the path of surprising aircraft is more obvious than being attacked by units you are already at war with????

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 8/6/2021 11:43:24 PM >


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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/7/2021 9:57:00 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It states in the rules there is no surprise if a unit (that otherwise would get a surprise benefit) overflies hexes controlled by a country the victim is already at war with.



Agreed. But the Italian plane flies from Italy to France to deliver it's bombs (see the picture in the first post). So it gets the benefits of surprise.


< Message edited by Centuur -- 8/7/2021 10:04:36 AM >


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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/8/2021 1:34:50 AM   
paulderynck


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Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/8/2021 9:19:16 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??


I don't know. Designer choice, I guess? An oversight by the designer, possibly? To put it bluntly: it's not stated in RAW...

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/8/2021 3:25:51 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??


I don't know. Designer choice, I guess? An oversight by the designer, possibly? To put it bluntly: it's not stated in RAW...

For a naval battle, surprise is negated for both the attacker and defender. That is clear:
quote:

NAVAL UNITS
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.

The question here, however, involves land units, and is not addressed in RAW. Clearly different people have read this rule differently.

If someone really wants to, they can ask ADG.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/8/2021 8:36:44 PM   
paulderynck


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Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/9/2021 10:29:55 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."


But MWIF isn't based on CE, so RAW7 should take preference, IMHO.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/9/2021 10:51:52 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."


But MWIF isn't based on CE, so RAW7 should take preference, IMHO.



And anyway that they are not surprised by the units of the power that was previously at war with that country "even if they attack in conjunction", doesn't mean that the war declaring power units don't have surprise.

IMO that's a wrong interpretation on your part, in CE too.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/9/2021 10:53:14 AM >

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/9/2021 12:16:41 PM   
BrianJH


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I agree with Paul on this.

Surprise bonuses are applied depending on the defending units (surprise) status.

Rule 15.0 (RAW7) make it clear what this status is.

quote:

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are at war with someone else.

However they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse."


As for the example in the original post, the last sentence applies here. The German aircraft flew from Germany, of which Germany was at war with France the previous impulse. Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

Attacking units don't claim surprise, it's a status applied to the defender, so any other units participating in the attack do not receive surprise bonuses, because the defending units are not surprised!!

Brian.


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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/9/2021 3:21:38 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianJH

I agree with Paul on this.

Surprise bonuses are applied depending on the defending units (surprise) status.

Rule 15.0 (RAW7) make it clear what this status is.

quote:

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are at war with someone else.

However they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse."


As for the example in the original post, the last sentence applies here. The German aircraft flew from Germany, of which Germany was at war with France the previous impulse. Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

Attacking units don't claim surprise, it's a status applied to the defender, so any other units participating in the attack do not receive surprise bonuses, because the defending units are not surprised!!

Brian.







The rule says those units are not surprised by GE (in this case) but those criteria don't apply to IT, which is effectively surprising FR, so IT units do surprise France.

The rule doesnt say anytime that surprised is an attribute of the attacker or the defender, it points to the relation between them.

quote:

Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

(by GE but yes by IT)

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/9/2021 3:22:14 PM >

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/9/2021 3:26:15 PM   
Joseignacio


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One other thing... Since the GE are including units not surprising the french, unlike the IT, could the French use their bomber in extended range to support? I guess yes.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/9/2021 6:57:23 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."

Paul, I think that this quote supports my position, not yours. What this says is that in the case under discussion, France is not surprised by Germany. We all agree on that. The German bomber is not doubled for surprise. However, this rule says that the French units are surprised by Italy. I see nothing in this rule that says that Italian units are do not get the benefit of surprise, even if the Germans are also involved in the combat.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/9/2021 9:06:49 PM   
gw15


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Whew! I need a beer after reading this thread. Makes me kind of miss the old days before computers playing WIF and we had to pause every so often to argue about rules.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/10/2021 4:46:53 AM   
paulderynck


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So here's a hypothetical question for y'all (whether or not you've had one or more beers so far).

Suppose there is French HQ adjacent to and behind the units being attacked in this example. It wants to use HQ support but the rules say surprised HQs can't do that. Can it provide HQ support - if so, why? If not - why not?

Let's say there's room in one of the hexes for the Germans to ATR in a mountain unit to also join in the land attack along with an Italian unit that is there and let's say that this attacking hex is across a river from the defender. Does this change anything regarding the HQ support?

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/10/2021 3:53:31 PM   
eouellet


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To add my two cans of beer here...

There is a bug in the original scenario for sure. It should be: IT 3 x 2 + GE 1.5 = 7.5, rounded to 8, not 9.

Surprise is a status for both attacker and defender, per power involved. In the new question from Paul, FR would be surprised, so no HQ support, while IT as attacker gets all the bonuses and advantages of surprise, and GE goes on as normal. The rules are pretty clear that it is power dependent, not a general status. So, an IT unit stacked with a GE unit attacking across a river, the IT unit attack factor would not be divided by two, but the GE unit yes. If an IT ATR transports a GE Airbone unit, the Italian ATR would not be subject to interception, but the GE Airbone would be as normal in land combat.


< Message edited by eouellet -- 8/10/2021 4:00:32 PM >

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/10/2021 8:05:15 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

So here's a hypothetical question for y'all (whether or not you've had one or more beers so far).

Suppose there is French HQ adjacent to and behind the units being attacked in this example. It wants to use HQ support but the rules say surprised HQs can't do that. Can it provide HQ support - if so, why? If not - why not?

Let's say there's room in one of the hexes for the Germans to ATR in a mountain unit to also join in the land attack along with an Italian unit that is there and let's say that this attacking hex is across a river from the defender. Does this change anything regarding the HQ support?

With the German bomber there, the French HQ could provide support. Adding more German units doesn't change that.

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RE: Surprise surprise - 8/10/2021 11:28:32 PM   
paulderynck


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Well at least I stirred the slurry some more...

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