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What is temp motorization?

 
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What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 3:05:42 PM   
ncc1701e


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Looks like everybody avoids it in AAR. I just would like to understand what it is.

Thanks

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 3:34:38 PM   
Scarz


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Per the rules:

22.2.5. Temporary Motorization
Any non-motorized combat unit (except cavalry units)
that is in supply may triple its movement points (MP) for
the current turn by clicking on ‘motorize unit’ from the
combat unit detail screen (37.3), but at a cost in vehicles
drawn from nearby depots and/or the motor pool as well
as administrative points (AP).

I think most people avoid it as it makes it very difficult to judge distances that can be moved by a single unit in a turn. Thus a unit can move a long way and break a pocket.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 4:38:39 PM   
ncc1701e


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Thanks

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 5:11:20 PM   
freeboy

 

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my use of this does NOT stay temp but is permenent giving me a boost in having a mobile inf unit

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 5:36:53 PM   
GibsonPete

 

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I personally like temp motorization. It adds some uncertainty to what you can expect and offers a chance to control the direction of routed forces.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 6:57:14 PM   
Sauron_II

 

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I use it, at least initially, at the beginning of the '41 campaign.

Usually motorize 2-3 infantry divisions.

Later, when vehicles run short, I subsequently de-motorize them through the winter.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 7:23:25 PM   
xhoel


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The reason why people dont use it is because it is overpowered and can be easily abused. It was added as a feature in order to simulate a unit getting trucks to react to an emergency situation. Think of a Soviet breakthrough and you have an infantry division to the rear. You would motorize them and send them there to put up some sort of defense.

The way players use it, where they basically convert standard infantry divisions to motorized ones is not intended AFAIK. It takes more than just adding trucks to field a motorized division, hence why players use house rules to prevent this.





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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 7:46:16 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Motorization breaks the game in H2H. Hell, it probably breaks it in HvAI too. Even 1 unit motorized is too much in my opinion.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 9:11:19 PM   
Joel Billings


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These changes were made in 1.01.00 re motorization so it's not quite as powerful as it used to be:

Rule change for temporarily motorized units:
a. Soviet units may not be temporarily motorized in 1941.
b. Corps and division sized units have a minimum AP cost of 3 to temp motorize.
c. Temporarily motorized units have to pass an extra admin check when determining their MPs (failure reduces their MPs).
d. Soviet motorized units that are brigade size or smaller have a max MP of 35, and this applies to temporarily motorized units.

We think with these rules, temp motorized units are not game breaking but bring in the possibility (at a coast) for players to simulate the ad hoc motorized formations that were put together by both sides during the war.

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All understanding comes after the fact.
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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 10:02:40 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

These changes were made in 1.01.00 re motorization so it's not quite as powerful as it used to be:

Rule change for temporarily motorized units:
a. Soviet units may not be temporarily motorized in 1941.
b. Corps and division sized units have a minimum AP cost of 3 to temp motorize.
c. Temporarily motorized units have to pass an extra admin check when determining their MPs (failure reduces their MPs).
d. Soviet motorized units that are brigade size or smaller have a max MP of 35, and this applies to temporarily motorized units.

We think with these rules, temp motorized units are not game breaking but bring in the possibility (at a coast) for players to simulate the ad hoc motorized formations that were put together by both sides during the war.



Ya, saw the update but I still feel the rules don't go far enough with all due respect. Until someone exploits this to how I envision it even with the updated rules I don't believe it will change. (I was the one who brought the original situation to attention in one of my AAR's and refused to continue using it in that game)

I stand by what I wrote. Motorization breaks the game in H2H. At least for me it does. When either side can Motorize any unit at a moments notice with any amount of MP's to take advantage of an opening they would not normally be able to exploit because they didn't leave a Pz/Armor or Moto/Mech in that area. Then to me that breaks the game. It is like a commander saying, "Hey, look an opening that we can move our newly formed Motorized unit formed on the spot this second to exploit this hole in the line". For me that doesn't sit well and I will continue to House rule it out of my H2H games because of someones poor planning but GOD saving ability of Motorization to turn the tide.

Not to mention with Germany you could have Infantry with the PZ/Moto in 41 and push the Soviets pretty hard. Couple of turns of this and the Soviets are facing PZ/Moto & Mass regular Infantry in Mass. Not to mention the above of exploiting any and every gap. I would push Moscow with that strat and I can almost bet Moscow would fall every time even with the current rule limitations. But maybe that is what you are looking for.

But hey, maybe you are correct with the current WITE2 players. But I firmly believe it is only a matter of time before someone proves me correct. If I had more time I would do it.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 10:27:33 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Just think of this for a second. 5 more German Infantry units can motorize a turn in 41 for 15AP(I know the other cost too but if I win early what does it matter on the other cost?). That is 15 regiments where-ever you want them motorized every turn to exploit the map. That is another Moto Corps isn't it? Are we really OK with that? I am not. Or am I missing something here?

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/1/2021 10:31:06 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Just think of this for a second. 5 more German Infantry units can motorize a turn in 41 for 15AP(I know the other cost too but if I win early what does it matter on the other cost?). That is 15 regiments where-ever you want them motorized every turn to exploit the map. That is another Moto Corps isn't it? Are we really OK with that? I am not. Or am I missing something here?


I haven't tested this but does it cost for Rgmt to Motorize now too? Or if the Division is broken down into Rgmts?

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 12:29:53 AM   
AlbertN

 

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I am not an expert but I see that as an issue in agreement with HLYA.

On the other hand there is the other bigger issue that may warrant it to some extents. Presently Soviets can just dance away, dance away and dance further away. So it's the gap closer for Germany Infantry at the cost of AP and trucks. Panzers cannot attack or they get shanked, as they seem massively brittle considering 0 replacements get shipped to the front.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 12:43:23 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I am not an expert but I see that as an issue in agreement with HLYA.

On the other hand there is the other bigger issue that may warrant it to some extents. Presently Soviets can just dance away, dance away and dance further away. So it's the gap closer for Germany Infantry at the cost of AP and trucks. Panzers cannot attack or they get shanked, as they seem massively brittle considering 0 replacements get shipped to the front.


Soviets can't dance away from Moscow area. Germans can threaten Smolensk easily turn 2 & 3 with Pz/Moto. Now add up to 10 - 15 normal Infantry Division turn 2 and 3 to that mix around Smolensk and the Soviets are going to be pressed. The Soviets can't afford to give up real estate after Smolensk. That is why you push Center using this & Moscow will fall. I have an opening for Moscow which I have yet to use, using motorization would make this sick.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/2/2021 12:47:17 AM >

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 2:09:36 AM   
Joel Billings


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How can you add all those motorized divisions. You get 15 AP per turn, and it costs 3 AP per division per turn to motorize 1 division. Assuming you need at least 5 APs to build new depots per turn, you might be able to motorize 3 divisions max. What am I missing?

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 3:17:31 AM   
AlbertN

 

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I assume the idea is that the Panzergruppe won't churn that distance -each turn-.
So let's say 3-4 divisions a turn, on T1 they get the special movement. On T2 and T3 and so on they simply 'catch up' with the Panzer vanguards which supposedly are not to advance that deep and that fast anymore.

I think the 'issue' more than that is the 'on the spot' emergency usage of trucks.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 3:23:04 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

How can you add all those motorized divisions. You get 15 AP per turn, and it costs 3 AP per division per turn to motorize 1 division. Assuming you need at least 5 APs to build new depots per turn, you might be able to motorize 3 divisions max. What am I missing?


You aren't missing anything and are correct on the AP costs. But you don't need to build depots on the first turn. I have tried it awhile back and seems to work ok. You can get away with 1 or 2 AP minimum on the 2nd turn for Depots in the direction of Moscow. You can spend 1 ap if you want to build one in the South but really don't need to since the Supply out of Rumania is sufficient Turns 1 through 3. The North can be supplied by sea. Same for turn 3. The focus is Moscow and slow playing the North and South. So technically you are correct you can't get 5 Divisions a turn but you can get 4 if you optimize your depot placement for target Moscow. Thus 12 Division and some Rgmts is still a pretty darn powerful force to contend with for the Soviets with PZ/Moto to boot. Speed is everything.

But maybe I am missing something that you all know. The above really doesn't kill Motorization for me. It is the on demand Motorization, as if by God himself, of any unit on the map. That is what kills motorization for me :(


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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 3:38:05 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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You don't need to build depots on the first turn because you are pretty well stocked at the start with the Germans until the start of turn 3 and most supply comes from depots already on the map turn 2.

The picture is my current game turn 2 where all the supply are from depots that already exist turn 1.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/2/2021 1:45:28 PM >

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 3:39:27 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Just think of this for a second. 5 more German Infantry units can motorize a turn in 41 for 15AP(I know the other cost too but if I win early what does it matter on the other cost?). That is 15 regiments where-ever you want them motorized every turn to exploit the map. That is another Moto Corps isn't it? Are we really OK with that? I am not. Or am I missing something here?


I haven't tested this but does it cost for Rgmt to Motorize now too? Or if the Division is broken down into Rgmts?


I tested this for the answer and it cost 1 point per broken down Rgmts. I probably missed the rule/errata :( I don't read them anyway I just play :)

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 4:01:26 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Throw in Super Depots for good measure and could get interesting really fast.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 4:16:14 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I can only imagine the chaos the Soviets can do later in the war if they save up their AP and blow it at one time on Motorization of a whole Army or Front. What the Germans did with Motorization will look like chump change to what the Soviets can do later. Especially with those huge AP bonuses they get.

But maybe my brainstorming here is just all wrong.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 4:24:08 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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All about the trucks I guess...

Anyway, spent too much time on this. Maybe this is needed for the game to work for the Soviets long term, I don't know. Only the powers to be probably know this. But at the moment I just see too much downside for this to be a viable addition to such a beautiful game. I will just continue to House rule this out of my games.

I am more than happy for someone to show me the error of my thinking. More than happy to get on Discord or any chat program to converse on the subject.


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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 1:01:51 PM   
GibsonPete

 

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"We think with these rules, temp motorized units are not game breaking but bring in the possibility (at a coast) for players to simulate the ad hoc motorized formations that were put together by both sides during the war." I agree with Joel on this. Additionally temp motorization will destroy your truck fleet if you abuse it. In terms of of AP's you simply cannot afford doing it turn after turn. I am no expert in the game and I never will be. I think it is an option for players to consider. A legitimate tool provided by the designers to use or not.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 1:38:36 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"We think with these rules, temp motorized units are not game breaking but bring in the possibility (at a coast) for players to simulate the ad hoc motorized formations that were put together by both sides during the war." I agree with Joel on this. Additionally temp motorization will destroy your truck fleet if you abuse it. In terms of of AP's you simply cannot afford doing it turn after turn. I am no expert in the game and I never will be. I think it is an option for players to consider. A legitimate tool provided by the designers to use or not.


Yup, you are not wrong.

But in my games it will be House ruled out since too much motorization fantasy destroys the game for me.

P.S. You don't need to do it turn after turn. Just enough to get the advantage.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 1:51:36 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Pretty much nothing will change until someone abuses the motorization system. Which is fine and can understand why it is done this way. Which reminds me that in real life it is the same where normally someone has to get hurt badly or die before laws are changed. Just how it is. I will wait for that someone that eventually shows the abuse.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 4:05:29 PM   
erikbengtsson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

How can you add all those motorized divisions. You get 15 AP per turn, and it costs 3 AP per division per turn to motorize 1 division. Assuming you need at least 5 APs to build new depots per turn, you might be able to motorize 3 divisions max. What am I missing?


Isn't that the point? That the German player can motorize any three divisions, anywhere on the map, at any given moment, and for consecutive turns? And if you have saved up AP's (for a summer 42 offensive, for example) you can motorize even more?

Was this ever done on a divisional level during the war? Was it ever done on multiple divisions at the same time during the war?

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 5:00:15 PM   
Joel Billings


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Don't forget that with the new rules, the MPs the units get are not what they used to be (at least you can't count on them).

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 5:42:54 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Don't forget that with the new rules, the MPs the units get are not what they used to be (at least you can't count on them).


True.

Programmed into the pseudo-random number generator for the minimum MP's and max MP's. What is the minimum MP threshold set by the Algorithm for motorization? I am sure for spending 3 AP's it would not be set to 0 if all rolls were failed. Or is it?

I really don't want to set up a test case to figure it out but can :)

Thank you in advance for your answer

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 5:57:25 PM   
Denniss

 

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There may still be some options to limit the usefulness of temp motorization if required.
options may be
set a global limit for temp mot units like 5 divs per turn
or always de-motorize them in next logistics
or increase movement point costs
etc.

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RE: What is temp motorization? - 8/2/2021 6:31:10 PM   
erikbengtsson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson
Was this ever done on a divisional level during the war? Was it ever done on multiple divisions at the same time during the war?

Does anyone know? I cannot remember reading anywhere of ad hoc motorization of division sized units.

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