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Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 7:26:34 AM   
MagicMissile


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Hello,

Harrybanana put this idea in my head so some credit goes to him (if it is a good idea if it is a bad one all blame on me ).

I was thinking for WP 2 maybe could be added to WP1 too if not too much work there should be a new hex improvement like beach defense and airfields "the subpen". It should cost some PP take some time to finish and when finished can be put on any port hex. The effect of the subpen should be to give a substantial bonus to submarine defense value when the submarine is in the same hex as the subpen.

The point being that carrier and landbased strikes on subs in ports should not be so devastating and the historical precedent is the German subs stationed in French ports during the war. Something not easily done in the game if the UK have some bombers in Britian.

Food for thought maybe.

/MM

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 8:25:01 AM   
Flaviusx


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I would go so far as to suggest that subs based in subpens should be immune to airstrikes.

Did such bombing in real life affect subs at all? My recollection is they were pretty safe from enemy action this way.

As things presently stand, the Germans have to base fighters and flak on French ports to discourage this, and that's not quite right. It achieves the same effect, but it is a kludge.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 8:29:34 AM   
MagicMissile


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Yes you might well be right. I was going to write something like " that will make them almost invulnerable to airstrikes" but I did not go that far .

/MM

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 8:37:33 AM   
Flaviusx


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Just make 'em expensive enough that the German won't spam 'em. 50 pps and 120 days, plus maybe throw in repair costs so if they are degraded beyond a certain point they can no longer afford protection.

The German might build 2-3 of them and be good to go. 1-2 in France and maybe another in Norway.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 12:21:24 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

As things presently stand, the Germans have to base fighters and flak on French ports to discourage this, and that's not quite right. It achieves the same effect, but it is a kludge.


Yea, this not only takes a lot of resources (the fighter especially) but also forces them in Bordeau instead of further north!

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 3:58:22 PM   
PL1

 

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+1

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 5:38:41 PM   
Professor Chaos

 

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Does a bunch of AA not work?

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 6:13:55 PM   
stjeand


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Lots of AA works well...and keeping out of range, Bordeaux. Rarely do my subs get attacked.
Especially if you keep a fighter and 6 AA in the port.

BUT the best port is Brest...

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/30/2021 10:26:59 PM   
Flaviusx


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Sure, it works, but like I said: it's a kludge. It would be better for there to be an actual subpen to do this job.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 5:42:45 AM   
Uxbridge


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I do have a minor objection to the subpens. If uboats are immune to air attacks in protected ports, with the ability to travel 48 hexes before being open to attacks again, wouldn't that simply negate an important part of BoA? The subs being in French ports doesn't, in my view, represent only the time being in actual port, but also the comings and goings through the Bay of Biscay, which was an extremey hazardous journey for the Germans, especially in the latter part of the war when the Allied electronics dramatically improved. Rather than having pens, let the subs be harder to hit while in port originally, and then lessen this protection as the Allied electronics tech-value goes up.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 8:07:26 AM   
Flaviusx


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Uxbridge, the important part of the uboat war is the escorts, and your ability to supplement them via carriers and land based airpowers. Bombing uboats directly in port is not really how it is done. It wasn't in real life and even in the game it can only work against a German player who hasn't taken countermeasures. With flak and air based appropriately, you can shut that down. The actual Battle of the Atlantic is fought out in...the Atlantic. Not in a French port.

Uboat pens aren't giving the German player anything he cannot already do. It's just much more elegant as a game solution.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/31/2021 8:08:42 AM >


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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 1:19:25 PM   
Uxbridge


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Has there been a change that enables air power to affect the convoy war? If that is so, and air ranges are taken into account, the two battlefields of Biscay and the Atlantic, may just as well blend into one.



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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 1:47:05 PM   
Flaviusx


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See latest patch.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 2:24:59 PM   
Uxbridge


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The only mentioning I found was "Fixed air group damage vs subs", which seem to be more about direct attack vs a submarine. There was nothing in the 1.00.11 either, yet I'm sure there has been talk of the Pacific convoy system being exported to Europe. Never mind; when everyone is back from holiday, I'm sure someone will know for sure.

As regards the pens, this far I side with stjeand, the current system works and gives us more to play with. If the chance of hitting a sub in port were lessened, that would be fine too.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 3:05:47 PM   
ncc1701e


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Is it a structure only for Axis? Or for Allies too? There is not much room left in the UI...

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 7:36:40 PM   
Professor Chaos

 

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I've assumed I'm building submarine pens when I beef up the AA.

Just another abstraction, like supply trucks.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 7/31/2021 9:31:10 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I've looked into adding them into the game but the data structure prevents me. It was my 1st game and something I just didn't think about for a subject so complex as this.

But the WP2 engine is coming along nicely. More room for added stuff as now I have a better grasp on what I am doing.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 8/1/2021 2:19:57 AM   
MagicMissile


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I guess there wont be any more major changes to WP1 thats ok I guess the show must go on.
But for WP 2 maybe?

AA might be a substitute of some kind but I doubt Brest had 6 pts of AA in the real war and as Flaviusx said if it is not too much work it is a more elegant solution.

/MM

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 8/1/2021 6:30:11 AM   
Flaviusx


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Maybe we should start making a WP2 wishlist in general. Since it looks like that is going to happen. I know I have a few items I'd like to see. (Soviet artillery corps, please. That can stack with maneuver formations.)

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 8/1/2021 7:33:58 AM   
ncc1701e


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Soviet tank armies

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 8/1/2021 7:49:48 AM   
Flaviusx


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Those already exist, tbh. You just have to reskin the armor corps in October 1942 when they get their mobility upgrade. Add an extra X to the icon. The unit itself already has the necessary qualities. Unless you want to give them something besides this, but a Soviet Tank Army is just anybody else's armor corps in this context.

As for the late war mech corps, in my own mind those are really Cavalry Mechanized Groups and could also use a reskin. At this scale that makes sense.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/1/2021 7:58:52 AM >


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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 8/1/2021 9:10:21 AM   
ncc1701e


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I understand what you are saying. I will then rephrase my request with the ability to split and merge armor corps.
In my books, a Soviet tank army is something like two tank corps and one mechanized corps.
So perhaps tune down the existing corps units.

Also, it would be cool like in WITE to have a guard counter color and that pass a certain experience a unit is automatically given this counter.

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 8/1/2021 9:15:55 AM   
ncc1701e


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And you are right, let's open a wishlist thread...

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RE: Game improvement suggestion: Subpens - 8/1/2021 2:04:43 PM   
hansondavid4

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Did such bombing in real life affect subs at all? My recollection is they were pretty safe from enemy action this way.



Hitting the sub pens was an early objective of the strategic bombing campaign. Early efforts had limited impacts. Eventually the allies developed deep penetrating bombs such as the Tallboy and Grand Slams which could damage the pens. Late war they literally blew the roof off of the pens which were set up to put together the modular type XXI boats. It was like a lot of things, an evolution of measures and counter measures.

The Bay of Biscay become a very dangerous place for U-boats to transit. You have to remember that until the Type XXI design, submarines are really surface ships that can go underwater for a limited amount to time. Until the snorkel, their underwater range was very limited (the speed and range on electric batteries was only good for tactical engagements/escape rather than for movement on a strategic scale). This allowed allied airpower to hit them in transit. Once planes became equipped with radar that could find them at night it became a bit of a gauntlet.

Games often become abstractions. Aircraft accounted for about half of the U-boat loses in WW2. These two things may balance things out; reflecting air assets committed and the corresponding degradation of the U-Boat force.

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