Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

TO&E

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> TO&E Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
TO&E - 7/22/2021 4:26:18 PM   
lion_of_judah


Posts: 2097
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline
where can one find documentation of the makeup of infantry battalions, brigades, and regiments. How many squads in each and their equipment. I used to have some, but have lost it. Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: TO&E - 7/22/2021 6:13:20 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5404
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
For Battalions:

http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/

If you mean a list of actual TOAW equipment.... I wouldn't trust it if it's compiled by some other designer. It's best to apply your own standards to real data, as there a lot of assumptions to be made about what is a squad, what is a heavy MG, what vehicles are likely to actually fight versus sit in the rear driving the Colonel around, etc. etc.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 2
RE: TO&E - 7/22/2021 9:40:39 PM   
lion_of_judah


Posts: 2097
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline
thanks for the link. I'm actually seeking both number of squads in a Battalion and equipment. The link helps with equipment, but not really the number of squads. Thank you, appreciate the link.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 3
RE: TO&E - 7/22/2021 10:31:28 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13059
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/IJA/HB/index.html

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 7/22/2021 10:33:27 PM >


_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 4
RE: TO&E - 7/22/2021 11:45:53 PM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1448
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline
The Niehorster web page has TO&Es from about 40 countries with most units broken down to the company level. Doesn’t show the number of squads but for most units it does have heavy weapons, combat vehicles and artillery calibers. Units are organized by both country and Theater of Operation.

Regards


http://niehorster.org/







Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 5
RE: TO&E - 7/23/2021 12:19:59 AM   
lion_of_judah


Posts: 2097
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline
thank you, appreciate it

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 6
RE: TO&E - 7/23/2021 12:20:22 AM   
lion_of_judah


Posts: 2097
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline
thank you very much

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 7
RE: TO&E - 7/23/2021 9:05:44 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5404
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
Thing is, a "squad" is a more or less arbitrary concept. To give an example from Niehorster, compare German and Polish rifle companies in 1939:

German:
http://niehorster.org/011_germany/39_organ_army/kstn_0131b%28R%29.htm

Polish:
http://niehorster.org/029_poland/organizations/co-inf.html

Both companies very clearly have nine rifle squads. But if you add up the men in the rifle squads, the German squad contains twelve men and the Polish squad nineteen

At the platoon level:
Polish platoon: 63
German platoon: 42

For me this translates into TOAW as
Polish platoon: 3 Rifle Squads, 2 light rifle squads, 1 AT Rifle
German platoon: 3 Rifle Squads, 1 50mm Mortar

This gives the Polish units a more realistic behaviour in TOAW, as they're able to hold a fixed position quite well with their large pool of manpower, but have little firepower. You could argue that the above actually gives the Poles too much firepower, especially as the BAR does not compare well with the MG34, and make it 5 light rifle squads for the Poles. This would give the platoon a total AP strength of 10 versus 12 for the German platoon.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 7/23/2021 1:17:00 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 8
RE: TO&E - 7/23/2021 12:02:46 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

where can one find documentation of the makeup of infantry battalions, brigades, and regiments. How many squads in each and their equipment. I used to have some, but have lost it. Thanks


If you go to the Niehorster site mentioned above, you can also download for free his books on German World War II organization, as well as his work on the Hungarian Army.

Cheers

(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 9
RE: TO&E - 7/23/2021 5:03:30 PM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1448
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Thing is, a "squad" is a more or less arbitrary concept.

Like the example you have built but I think the use of “arbitrary” is not the correct term when describing the infantry squad. The stock TOAW comes with over 24 pre-defined infantry squads plus a multitude of crewed/heavy weapons which can be added. I don’t find this as arbitrary. Maybe the number and type of squads assigned could be considered arbitrary, but that is the designers call.

For myself I prefer to build units at the company rather than platoon level. In addition to the rifle and weapons squads this enables the rifles and weapons held in admin/logistics to be represented by an appropriate number of light squads, LMGs, ATRs, etc. I like it when a unit icon actually describes a discreet unit function and is not a holding tank for multiple subunit functions. Just seems to me that the higher up you go the blander the units become.

Back to the example. Shows that with a little analysis the TO&E data can yield a very nice representation of the actual units. Nice work.

Regards



_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 10
RE: TO&E - 7/23/2021 6:00:26 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=234261&sid=ddaf254814dab49a6ece43551e92e512

also offers some interesting comments on this topic. Both James Dunnigan and Gary Kennedy took part in the discussion and made some notable comments.

Cheers

(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 11
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> TO&E Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.156