Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

OT: WW2 Documentary

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT: WW2 Documentary Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 12:59:29 AM   
Footslogger


Posts: 1235
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Washington USA
Status: offline
Is This Documentary Accurate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj7FEW8E184




< Message edited by Footslogger -- 7/13/2021 1:02:04 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 6:30:06 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23932
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,


quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Is This Documentary Accurate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj7FEW8E184





RT = "Russia Today"

Enough said...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Footslogger)
Post #: 2
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 7:05:19 AM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
It is correct about the British and French having contingency plans in regard to attacking/disrupting the Soviet oil industry in the Caucasus. The rest of the documentary though appears to be just a spin job on the geopolitics of the time.

_____________________________

This was the only sig line I could think of.

(in reply to Footslogger)
Post #: 3
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 7:18:43 AM   
Maallon

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline
As always with Russian media some of it is true, some of it isn't and a lot of it is just out of proportion.
First and foremost, everything that was said in the video is already known since many years, so it's not really news.
Maybe they just found new documents about it, but claiming this as big news would also be fairly typical for Russian media.

To put it shortly with some examples.
What is true:
They Allies did plan to bomb the USSR oil fields before the invasion of France. Animosity between the western Allies and the USSR were high, which is kind of understandable because the USSR helped to invade their ally Poland. Also the USSR provided Germany with a lot of resources, including vital oil.
That the USSR suggested a anti Hitler pact is also true, but again, animosity and distrust was just too high for that to actually happen during that time.
What is not true:
Even though where were probably some people in Poland who welcomed a soviet occupation the vast majority of polish people under soviet occupation suffered a lot. Stalin suffered a very humiliating defeat during the Soviet-Polish war against Poland and was out for revenge. Given the cruelty he was willing to commit against his own people, polish people certainly didn't fare any better.
What is just out of proportion:
Nearly everything but to make a concrete example: While Finland did loose more territory during the Soviet-Finish war then at first demanded from them, the main reason why they didn't accept it was that the USSR "coincidentally" demanded all border territories that were heavily fortified or posed natural obstacles. So the Finnish fear was that after they would concede those territories they would have no means to effectively defend themselves against a soviet invasion and the soviets could just make even more demands that could eventually lead to the occupation of Finland as a whole.

It is all tailored to make an appeal to be a neutral opinion but in the end everything is very pro-Russian. I would generally not give too much credit to news channels that are funded by the Russian government. Also the whole documentary is just far too short and all over the place to give any meaningful information.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 12:54:29 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17273
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
Recent commentary by former diplomats is that Russia is trying to re-write the history information available in their country to stoke nationalism and support their claims to more territory. Rewriting history to leave out the failures is typical in autocratic regimes.

China just celebrated 100 years since their Communist Party was founded; in their celebrations I did not hear any reports of the event addressing the Party's many failures. Denying reality always sets up the believers for pain further down the road when reality bites undeniably.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 5
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 1:01:56 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12626
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
1984 by George Orwell .. .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 6
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 3:00:02 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Rewriting history to leave out the failures is typical in autocratic regimes.



An excellent observation.

There is no single nation without blemishes from specific instances in World War 2.

Those Nations that have been open and honest to critical self examination in both the number and scope of such incidents are those that can reasonably claim 'the higher moral ground'.





_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/13/2021 10:25:49 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 254
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Recent commentary by former diplomats is that Russia is trying to re-write the history information available in their country to stoke nationalism and support their claims to more territory. Rewriting history to leave out the failures is typical in autocratic regimes.

China just celebrated 100 years since their Communist Party was founded; in their celebrations I did not hear any reports of the event addressing the Party's many failures. Denying reality always sets up the believers for pain further down the road when reality bites undeniably.


"When the truth offends, we lie and lie until we can no longer remember it's even there, but it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov Chernobyl

Ah yes, the banality of evil. Some refer to the "Eichmann Effect". Or as Tom Shippey pointed out: "In the end you have the major atrocities of the 20th century being carried out by bureaucrats."

You can understand why some people believe we are cultivating our own end of human existence. It is way scarier than any horror movie.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 8
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 12:29:35 AM   
Footslogger


Posts: 1235
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Washington USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

As always with Russian media some of it is true, some of it isn't and a lot of it is just out of proportion.
First and foremost, everything that was said in the video is already known since many years, so it's not really news.
Maybe they just found new documents about it, but claiming this as big news would also be fairly typical for Russian media.

To put it shortly with some examples.
What is true:
They Allies did plan to bomb the USSR oil fields before the invasion of France. Animosity between the western Allies and the USSR were high, which is kind of understandable because the USSR helped to invade their ally Poland. Also the USSR provided Germany with a lot of resources, including vital oil.
That the USSR suggested a anti Hitler pact is also true, but again, animosity and distrust was just too high for that to actually happen during that time.
What is not true:
Even though where were probably some people in Poland who welcomed a soviet occupation the vast majority of polish people under soviet occupation suffered a lot. Stalin suffered a very humiliating defeat during the Soviet-Polish war against Poland and was out for revenge. Given the cruelty he was willing to commit against his own people, polish people certainly didn't fare any better.
What is just out of proportion:
Nearly everything but to make a concrete example: While Finland did loose more territory during the Soviet-Finish war then at first demanded from them, the main reason why they didn't accept it was that the USSR "coincidentally" demanded all border territories that were heavily fortified or posed natural obstacles. So the Finnish fear was that after they would concede those territories they would have no means to effectively defend themselves against a soviet invasion and the soviets could just make even more demands that could eventually lead to the occupation of Finland as a whole.

It is all tailored to make an appeal to be a neutral opinion but in the end everything is very pro-Russian. I would generally not give too much credit to news channels that are funded by the Russian government. Also the whole documentary is just far too short and all over the place to give any meaningful information.



That's what I thought. However, is it true that France and Britain were going to war with the USSR and if the phony war had not be declared, I wonder how things would have turned out?

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 9
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 2:15:27 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 44998
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

However, is it true that France and Britain were going to war with the USSR and if the phony war had not be declared, I wonder how things would have turned out?
warspite1

No, there was never any real prospect of France and Britain going to war with the USSR.

Having declared war for the right reasons, sadly the actions of the French and British in 1939-40 were a lesson in muddle, confusion, inaction and indecisiveness. I am sure there are plenty more words that can be ascribed too.

We know what happened and so the Allied plan to wait until 1941 to launch offensive action against Germany, while the French and British built up their forces, is seen as wrong. However there was no reason to believe the Germans could achieve what they ultimately did and, with their superior purchasing power compared to Germany, the Allied plan was maybe not that off the wall. It was felt Germany's military lead would gradually be eroded over time and there was the hope that Hitler would be overthrown before a shooting war on the Western Front came about.

So while this 'Phoney War' came about (the German plans to attack in the west in the autumn of 1939/early 1940 never took off for a couple of reasons - another amazing piece of Hitler luck in the early war) what was to be done? After the horrors of the First World War, the French were desperate to have the fighting take place anywhere but on French soil. The British and French were also happy to undertake limited operations, but wanted the other to be in charge in case it all went wrong.....

The French plan to bomb the Caucasus (I've always read it was a spiffing wheeze dreamed up by Gamelin) was only ever really a contingency - at least for the British - and I don't think it ever remotely had any chance of being acted upon. The Allies realised they had bitten off quite a bit with Germany, without bringing the USSR in against them too.

But a shooting war with the Soviet Union was perhaps more likely had the Anglo-French expedition to Finland have taken off. However, this too was never really going to happen. The French wanted it to happen (the lack of action to support the Finns cost Deladier his job) but there was the thorny issue of how to get there (and how to actually man the project.....). Proving that off the wall nonsense was not just the preserve of the French, the British dreamed up the 'plan' of landing in Norway with an expeditionary force that would move overland to Finland, stopping off via the Swedish iron ore mines (which would just happen to stop German supply of iron ore from this source - well that's a nice coincidence!).... There was only one problem with this 'plan' - it was all total cobblers. How the Norwegians - let alone the Swedes - would react was not really considered over and above the idea that they would be delighted at help being provided to their fellow Scandinavians. After garrisoning the Swedish ore mines, what size force would actually make it to Finland was probably no more than a platoon of reservists and a Dachshund named Colin. This whole tragic-comedy episode could have its own thread.

So no, it was never really likely that the Allies would seek to go to war with the USSR in 1939/40.




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/14/2021 2:18:57 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Footslogger)
Post #: 10
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 3:41:49 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12626
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

However, is it true that France and Britain were going to war with the USSR and if the phony war had not be declared, I wonder how things would have turned out?
warspite1

No, there was never any real prospect of France and Britain going to war with the USSR.

Having declared war for the right reasons, sadly the actions of the French and British in 1939-40 were a lesson in muddle, confusion, inaction and indecisiveness. I am sure there are plenty more words that can be ascribed too.

We know what happened and so the Allied plan to wait until 1941 to launch offensive action against Germany, while the French and British built up their forces, is seen as wrong. However there was no reason to believe the Germans could achieve what they ultimately did and, with their superior purchasing power compared to Germany, the Allied plan was maybe not that off the wall. It was felt Germany's military lead would gradually be eroded over time and there was the hope that Hitler would be overthrown before a shooting war on the Western Front came about.

So while this 'Phoney War' came about (the German plans to attack in the west in the autumn of 1939/early 1940 never took off for a couple of reasons - another amazing piece of Hitler luck in the early war) what was to be done? After the horrors of the First World War, the French were desperate to have the fighting take place anywhere but on French soil. The British and French were also happy to undertake limited operations, but wanted the other to be in charge in case it all went wrong.....

The French plan to bomb the Caucasus (I've always read it was a spiffing wheeze dreamed up by Gamelin) was only ever really a contingency - at least for the British - and I don't think it ever remotely had any chance of being acted upon. The Allies realised they had bitten off quite a bit with Germany, without bringing the USSR in against them too.

But a shooting war with the Soviet Union was perhaps more likely had the Anglo-French expedition to Finland have taken off. However, this too was never really going to happen. The French wanted it to happen (the lack of action to support the Finns cost Deladier his job) but there was the thorny issue of how to get there (and how to actually man the project.....). Proving that off the wall nonsense was not just the preserve of the French, the British dreamed up the 'plan' of landing in Norway with an expeditionary force that would move overland to Finland, stopping off via the Swedish iron ore mines (which would just happen to stop German supply of iron ore from this source - well that's a nice coincidence!).... There was only one problem with this 'plan' - it was all total cobblers. How the Norwegians - let alone the Swedes - would react was not really considered over and above the idea that they would be delighted at help being provided to their fellow Scandinavians. After garrisoning the Swedish ore mines, what size force would actually make it to Finland was probably no more than a platoon of reservists and a Dachshund named Colin. This whole tragic-comedy episode could have its own thread.

So no, it was never really likely that the Allies would seek to go to war with the USSR in 1939/40.


You have it wrong. It would not be a Dachshund named Colin since that is a German breed. It would have been a Collie named Lassie.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 11
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 5:26:25 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7372
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

That the USSR suggested a anti Hitler pact is also true, but again, animosity and distrust was just too high for that to actually happen during that time.


Yeah, that really oversimplifies things.

One of the biggest hurdles here was that for any pact to be signed, Stalin wanted the right to have Soviet troops to pass through Poland, and that just wasn't going to happen.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 7/14/2021 5:33:44 AM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 12
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 5:32:51 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7372
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

So no, it was never really likely that the Allies would seek to go to war with the USSR in 1939/40.


I can get on board with most of what you have said, as for this....

I think the reality is that France and Britain knew they couldn't, no matter what fanciful plans they may have made.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 13
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 5:39:53 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7372
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Is This Documentary Accurate?


All propaganda benefits from some truth, and this does as well. As has been said its not like all of this was unknown, and TBH most of it stems from the Nazi/Soviet Pact.

In short Stalin couldn't get what he wanted from the Allies, so he hitch his wagon to the Nazis.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 14
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 7:04:25 AM   
Maallon

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

That the USSR suggested a anti Hitler pact is also true, but again, animosity and distrust was just too high for that to actually happen during that time.


Yeah, that really oversimplifies things.

One of the biggest hurdles here was that for any pact to be signed, Stalin wanted the right to have Soviet troops to pass through Poland, and that just wasn't going to happen.


You are correct, I just made some quick examples from stuff that was thrown out in the video.
And to be fair, your point ultimately boils down to distrust.
edit: justified distrust of course

< Message edited by Maallon -- 7/14/2021 7:31:06 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 15
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 8:19:24 AM   
Maallon

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

That's what I thought. However, is it true that France and Britain were going to war with the USSR and if the phony war had not be declared, I wonder how things would have turned out?

I would also agree with what warspite1 wrote.
The whole thing was just a product of the phoney war.
Also allied intelligence was wrong about the whole premise as the majority of German oil didn't actually come from the USSR but from Romania.
And given the overall low effectiveness of strategic bombing during the time, the whole operation probably wouldn't have been very effective anyway.

Really the reason why Russia Today dug this whole thing up again is just for propaganda reasons and the Soviet Union itself certainly doesn't have a particularly white vest when it comes to attacking neutral nations. If you are interested in learning more about it, the operation was called "Operation Pike".
According to the source section in Wikipedia, the whole affair was already covered and published in the magazine "French Historical Studies" in 1973.
This shows how much this is all actually just an old shoe and not something that was declassified just recently.


(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 2:46:32 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17273
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
It's worth keeping in mind the big picture of what leaders in the west were thinking at the time. Remember that Britain (and maybe France too?) attacked Russia during its civil war after WWI because they were afraid of Bolshevism doctrine being spread. Red Russian forces withstood that and still defeated the White Russians, but settled down to pacify their own country and repair some of the damage it suffered from war. Food shortages followed as the Soviets took over farms and mismanaged food production. Russian leaders took food from Ukraine to feed their people, leaving Ukrainians to starve in the Holmidor.

Meanwhile, Lenin and Trotsky were assassinated and the Bolshevik party became the Communist Party. The new party specifically set out to spread Communism via the COMINTERN (Communist International) organization. It made inroads into the ranks of workers in China, Germany and especially France, stirring much unrest. During the Spanish Civil War, the COMINTERN was active in trying to set up enclaves by supporting the anti-fascist side with arms but requiring them to adopt Communist ideology and policies. They were not above assassinating anyone who offered alternative leadership. Franco's victory forced them out of Spain, but that meant more unrest in France.

So on the cusp of WWII, French leaders were anxious to get rid of Communist influence and Britain was growing increasingly alarmed at the growth of Communist thinking among its Universities - both students and professors, and rise of the Labour Party. Of course Britain and France were going to entertain any idea to hit back at Russia in hopes of starting a counter-revolution. But has been mentioned, it was not logistically possible at the time so it was not acted on.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 17
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 7:57:19 PM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
The British War Cabinet records just prior to the end of the Phony War show that the RAF plans for bombing the oil fields were to only be considered as a possible response to any further Russian "aggression" in the Baltic or the Balkans. The War Cabinet records also noted in April '40 that Reynaud agreed the French plans were also to be conditional on Russian behaviour and hoped the known presence (to the Russians) of French bombers in Syria should act as a deterrent for such.

It's pretty clear they weren't looking for a fight with the Russians during this period.

_____________________________

This was the only sig line I could think of.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 18
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/14/2021 8:02:14 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7372
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

And to be fair, your point ultimately boils down to distrust.


OK, possibly to a degree, but I think it was more that Stalin wanted the BBD (Bigger Better Deal, at least in his eyes), no matter where he got it.

And in all fairness I do believe Stalin knew that a confrontation with Germany was bound to happen, sooner or later.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 19
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 9:11:24 AM   
Maallon

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

And to be fair, your point ultimately boils down to distrust.


OK, possibly to a degree, but I think it was more that Stalin wanted the BBD (Bigger Better Deal, at least in his eyes), no matter where he got it.

And in all fairness I do believe Stalin knew that a confrontation with Germany was bound to happen, sooner or later.


As far as I remember the deal came to a halt because Poland didn't want to allow soviet troops passage through their territory as they feared they would never leave again. Also the UK and France feared that this would ultimately lead to an Soviet hegemony in the east which they certainly didn't wanted. So it came down to it that the western Allies, especially Poland, didn't trust the USSR. Given what happened in the Baltic after the occupation of Poland, I would say that that distrust was well founded.
Only after the negotiations were suspended to an undefined time the USSR and Germany made an effort to make negotiations of their own.

What Stalin really thought about all this is hard to say, while he probably expected that a war with Germany was bound to happen, he certainly didn't expected it to happen so soon.
Stalin actually had a tendency to have deluded views on many things. He for example believed a report during the Finnish war that the Finnish people were just about to start a communist revolution and help the red army in "liberating" the country. This of course was not true and should have been hard to believe anyway because the red army currently killed the fathers and sons of these very people who were supposed to help the red army.
Not the best basis for cooperation.
So what Stalin thought at any given time can be hard to comprehend, maybe he put up this whole thing with the Allies as a farce to get a better deal out of Germany, maybe he actually would have preferred to get the deal with the Allies and Germany was his second choice. Without hard evidence, that I am not aware of exists, it is really just speculation. But it can be said for certain that the Allies didn't accept the deal with the USSR because they just simply didn't trust them enough in the end.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 20
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 10:29:52 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22285
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No, there was never any real prospect of France and Britain going to war with the USSR.

Having declared war for the right reasons, sadly the actions of the French and British in 1939-40 were a lesson in muddle, confusion, inaction and indecisiveness. I am sure there are plenty more words that can be ascribed too.

We know what happened and so the Allied plan to wait until 1941 to launch offensive action against Germany, while the French and British built up their forces, is seen as wrong. However there was no reason to believe the Germans could achieve what they ultimately did and, with their superior purchasing power compared to Germany, the Allied plan was maybe not that off the wall. It was felt Germany's military lead would gradually be eroded over time and there was the hope that Hitler would be overthrown before a shooting war on the Western Front came about.

So while this 'Phoney War' came about (the German plans to attack in the west in the autumn of 1939/early 1940 never took off for a couple of reasons - another amazing piece of Hitler luck in the early war) what was to be done? After the horrors of the First World War, the French were desperate to have the fighting take place anywhere but on French soil. The British and French were also happy to undertake limited operations, but wanted the other to be in charge in case it all went wrong.....

The French plan to bomb the Caucasus (I've always read it was a spiffing wheeze dreamed up by Gamelin) was only ever really a contingency - at least for the British - and I don't think it ever remotely had any chance of being acted upon. The Allies realised they had bitten off quite a bit with Germany, without bringing the USSR in against them too.

But a shooting war with the Soviet Union was perhaps more likely had the Anglo-French expedition to Finland have taken off. However, this too was never really going to happen. The French wanted it to happen (the lack of action to support the Finns cost Deladier his job) but there was the thorny issue of how to get there (and how to actually man the project.....). Proving that off the wall nonsense was not just the preserve of the French, the British dreamed up the 'plan' of landing in Norway with an expeditionary force that would move overland to Finland, stopping off via the Swedish iron ore mines (which would just happen to stop German supply of iron ore from this source - well that's a nice coincidence!).... There was only one problem with this 'plan' - it was all total cobblers. How the Norwegians - let alone the Swedes - would react was not really considered over and above the idea that they would be delighted at help being provided to their fellow Scandinavians. After garrisoning the Swedish ore mines, what size force would actually make it to Finland was probably no more than a platoon of reservists and a Dachshund named Colin. This whole tragic-comedy episode could have its own thread.

So no, it was never really likely that the Allies would seek to go to war with the USSR in 1939/40.


Hear, hear.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 21
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 2:24:40 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3162
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
Militaries make lots of contingency plans. Some are more far fetched than others. Many are just theoretical things that assist force projection and acquisition policies.

Does anyone know the code name of the current US plan to stage a suprise tri-service assault from Japan bases to seize the Nakhodka-Vladivostok base area in the event of a Russian Federation melt-down?

Tell me there isn't one.



_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 2:27:27 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17273
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Militaries make lots of contingency plans. Some are more far fetched than others. Many are just theoretical things that assist force projection and acquisition policies.

Does anyone know the code name of the current US plan to stage a suprise tri-service assault from Japan bases to seize the Nakhodka-Vladivostok base area in the event of a Russian Federation melt-down?

Tell me there isn't one.



No time to make such a plan. Currently working on seizing China from Taiwan ...

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 23
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 2:58:32 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3162
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
Are yes, Operation Hidden Tiger. Or id that Couching Dragon?

No doubt the PRC will cite the mere existence of said plan (even if their cyber warrior directorate actually invented it as a elite maskirovka exercise directed at the proletariat) as a reason to invade the ROC.

I had started, 20 years ago, to think the collapse of the bipolar world order & economic enmeshment of the PRC and the immediate west (or their east - ROC, ROK, Japan etc) had made the concept of commencing economically dislocating military hostilities unthinkable.

I am, unfortunately, starting to think that the current autocratic regime is so arrogant and belligerent that it might actually try.



_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 24
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 3:26:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 44998
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

And to be fair, your point ultimately boils down to distrust.


OK, possibly to a degree, but I think it was more that Stalin wanted the BBD (Bigger Better Deal, at least in his eyes), no matter where he got it.

And in all fairness I do believe Stalin knew that a confrontation with Germany was bound to happen, sooner or later.


As far as I remember the deal came to a halt because Poland didn't want to allow soviet troops passage through their territory as they feared they would never leave again. Also the UK and France feared that this would ultimately lead to an Soviet hegemony in the east which they certainly didn't wanted. So it came down to it that the western Allies, especially Poland, didn't trust the USSR. Given what happened in the Baltic after the occupation of Poland, I would say that that distrust was well founded.
Only after the negotiations were suspended to an undefined time the USSR and Germany made an effort to make negotiations of their own.

What Stalin really thought about all this is hard to say, while he probably expected that a war with Germany was bound to happen, he certainly didn't expected it to happen so soon.
Stalin actually had a tendency to have deluded views on many things. He for example believed a report during the Finnish war that the Finnish people were just about to start a communist revolution and help the red army in "liberating" the country. This of course was not true and should have been hard to believe anyway because the red army currently killed the fathers and sons of these very people who were supposed to help the red army.
Not the best basis for cooperation.
So what Stalin thought at any given time can be hard to comprehend, maybe he put up this whole thing with the Allies as a farce to get a better deal out of Germany, maybe he actually would have preferred to get the deal with the Allies and Germany was his second choice. Without hard evidence, that I am not aware of exists, it is really just speculation. But it can be said for certain that the Allies didn't accept the deal with the USSR because they just simply didn't trust them enough in the end.
warspite1

As you say, the deal with the Western Allies was never going to happen because Poland (quite reasonably) wouldn't allow it. Britain and France had nothing really to offer Stalin - and certainly nothing Stalin would get excited about. But then along came Hitler with a tempting bag of goodies.....

I still think the most plausible reason for the deal with Hitler was that Stalin (again quite reasonably) thought of WWI and foresaw the Germans and Western Allies slaughtering each other to a standstill.

Ergo. The west (inc. Germany) is no longer a threat to the USSR and, if he wants to, Stalin can start dictating the terms of the NS Pact 2.0. The The straits would be high on the agenda no doubt.....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 25
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 4:37:45 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12626
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Are yes, Operation Hidden Tiger. Or id that Couching Dragon?

No doubt the PRC will cite the mere existence of said plan (even if their cyber warrior directorate actually invented it as a elite maskirovka exercise directed at the proletariat) as a reason to invade the ROC.

I had started, 20 years ago, to think the collapse of the bipolar world order & economic enmeshment of the PRC and the immediate west (or their east - ROC, ROK, Japan etc) had made the concept of commencing economically dislocating military hostilities unthinkable.

I am, unfortunately, starting to think that the current autocratic regime is so arrogant and belligerent that it might actually try.


Kinda, sorta, like a North Central European country during the early to mid 20th century . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 26
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 4:55:09 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 8341
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

And to be fair, your point ultimately boils down to distrust.


OK, possibly to a degree, but I think it was more that Stalin wanted the BBD (Bigger Better Deal, at least in his eyes), no matter where he got it.

And in all fairness I do believe Stalin knew that a confrontation with Germany was bound to happen, sooner or later.


As far as I remember the deal came to a halt because Poland didn't want to allow soviet troops passage through their territory as they feared they would never leave again. Also the UK and France feared that this would ultimately lead to an Soviet hegemony in the east which they certainly didn't wanted. So it came down to it that the western Allies, especially Poland, didn't trust the USSR. Given what happened in the Baltic after the occupation of Poland, I would say that that distrust was well founded.
Only after the negotiations were suspended to an undefined time the USSR and Germany made an effort to make negotiations of their own.

What Stalin really thought about all this is hard to say, while he probably expected that a war with Germany was bound to happen, he certainly didn't expected it to happen so soon.
Stalin actually had a tendency to have deluded views on many things. He for example believed a report during the Finnish war that the Finnish people were just about to start a communist revolution and help the red army in "liberating" the country. This of course was not true and should have been hard to believe anyway because the red army currently killed the fathers and sons of these very people who were supposed to help the red army.
Not the best basis for cooperation.
So what Stalin thought at any given time can be hard to comprehend, maybe he put up this whole thing with the Allies as a farce to get a better deal out of Germany, maybe he actually would have preferred to get the deal with the Allies and Germany was his second choice. Without hard evidence, that I am not aware of exists, it is really just speculation. But it can be said for certain that the Allies didn't accept the deal with the USSR because they just simply didn't trust them enough in the end.
warspite1

As you say, the deal with the Western Allies was never going to happen because Poland (quite reasonably) wouldn't allow it. Britain and France had nothing really to offer Stalin - and certainly nothing Stalin would get excited about. But then along came Hitler with a tempting bag of goodies.....

I still think the most plausible reason for the deal with Hitler was that Stalin (again quite reasonably) thought of WWI and foresaw the Germans and Western Allies slaughtering each other to a standstill.

Ergo. The west (inc. Germany) is no longer a threat to the USSR and, if he wants to, Stalin can start dictating the terms of the NS Pact 2.0. The The straits would be high on the agenda no doubt.....


Stalin's nightmare was an Anti-Bolshevik crusade scenario with Germany, Britain, and France allied against him. In his deluded mind, Poland's objection to foreign troops was meaningless. He did not understand the role public opinion played in democracies, and that a 2nd Munich-like deal was politically impossible for Britain to contemplate.

It's odd that Stalin apparently believed Hitler would not break the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and attack him, in spite of Hitler having broken other treaties (and breaking many himself). Did Stalin make the mistake of believing his own propaganda?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 27
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 6:01:58 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22285
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

It's odd that Stalin apparently believed Hitler would not break the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and attack him, in spite of Hitler having broken other treaties (and breaking many himself). Did Stalin make the mistake of believing his own propaganda?


I suspect that Stalin didn't think AH crazy enough to attack USSR while still having an active war against CW.

Edit: And because Stalin planned to be the one breaking the pact, or modifying it to better favour USSR, Stalin didn't want to do anything to provoke AH.

< Message edited by Orm -- 7/15/2021 6:04:07 PM >


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 28
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 8:28:48 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7372
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

And to be fair, your point ultimately boils down to distrust.


OK, possibly to a degree, but I think it was more that Stalin wanted the BBD (Bigger Better Deal, at least in his eyes), no matter where he got it.

And in all fairness I do believe Stalin knew that a confrontation with Germany was bound to happen, sooner or later.


As far as I remember the deal came to a halt because Poland didn't want to allow soviet troops passage through their territory as they feared they would never leave again. Also the UK and France feared that this would ultimately lead to an Soviet hegemony in the east which they certainly didn't wanted. So it came down to it that the western Allies, especially Poland, didn't trust the USSR. Given what happened in the Baltic after the occupation of Poland, I would say that that distrust was well founded.
Only after the negotiations were suspended to an undefined time the USSR and Germany made an effort to make negotiations of their own.

What Stalin really thought about all this is hard to say, while he probably expected that a war with Germany was bound to happen, he certainly didn't expected it to happen so soon.
Stalin actually had a tendency to have deluded views on many things. He for example believed a report during the Finnish war that the Finnish people were just about to start a communist revolution and help the red army in "liberating" the country. This of course was not true and should have been hard to believe anyway because the red army currently killed the fathers and sons of these very people who were supposed to help the red army.
Not the best basis for cooperation.
So what Stalin thought at any given time can be hard to comprehend, maybe he put up this whole thing with the Allies as a farce to get a better deal out of Germany, maybe he actually would have preferred to get the deal with the Allies and Germany was his second choice. Without hard evidence, that I am not aware of exists, it is really just speculation. But it can be said for certain that the Allies didn't accept the deal with the USSR because they just simply didn't trust them enough in the end.



All good points, agree with most.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 29
RE: OT: WW2 Documentary - 7/15/2021 8:37:57 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7372
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

I still think the most plausible reason for the deal with Hitler was that Stalin (again quite reasonably) thought of WWI and foresaw the Germans and Western Allies slaughtering each other to a standstill.


Yup, and shook him quite a bit when AH marched straight into Paris. At that point Germany looked unbeatable.

After that the only way for him to buy the time he wanted was not to piss Germany off.

Didn't work, did it?



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT: WW2 Documentary Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.424