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RE: Russian balance - 7/21/2021 1:26:09 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I don't think it will change much. This won't affect the Soviets at all, of course, because they don't ungarrison their speed bumps.

Imo, it's not the answer I'm looking for here. Soviets are still going to get steamrolled.



It will help the Russians in a few ways:
1. The Germans won't have as many Armour ready for the beginning of the Battle of France.
2. The French garrisoned units (which now will be most of my French units) will gain +2 Anti-tank.
3. The combined effect of 1 and 2 will be more German casualties attacking France, which means less strength for Russia.
4. The Germans will have less Armour ready for the beginning of Barbarossa. Even just 1 or 2 could make a difference.
5. The Russian garrison units (which in my case will be some 60 large corps) will gain +2 anti-tank, which means more German Casualties.

By themselves each of these is only a minor help to the Russians. But perhaps combined they will be enough to make a difference. I agree that it was not the answer I was looking for either, but it might be enough.




This sums it up.

From my decades, and I can't believe I can say this, of playing World in Flames MORE stuff on the map leads to 2 things. First, a steam roll effect because it is harder to balance the sides. Second, a static effect where the fronts are slow and boring because everyone is triple stacked and deep.

This is my opinion only from observation is that the ideal situation is where all sides feel like they never have enough. That forces players to put their effort into one scenario until very late in the war where the Allies should have a large force advantage.

The goal is, if things turn out balanced, that the Germans do have to face a decision in 1942 of where to attack assuming a 1941 invasion. Where the Soviets don't have the forces to attack in 1942 themselves but enough to defend well 2 of the 3 front lines. Where the Western Allies can't willy nilly do what they want in 1942. Where balanced set of forces are important.

I added some of the BoA stuff because I noticed, as did Hadros, a huge hole in the BoA that was easily exploitable by the Germans. Also it wasn't even close to cost effective to build air with ASW components. Now they add a permanent value to the situation in which the cost returns over time in direct PP impact on the Germans and a determine of PP loss for the UK.

Now I have to play Hadros WPP to balance that.

Incredibly though a mountain of games I have played I still enjoy playing my creation. I figure I'd be burned out by now.

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RE: Russian balance - 7/21/2021 1:37:47 PM   
Flaviusx


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My initial assessment was not favorable but I have changed my mind here. The +2 AT effect is very noticeable although I don't understand exactly what it is doing. Is that really just +2 to guns? It seems like it is doing more than that.

I consider this a bigger change than eliminating the garrison PP exploit, as a matter of fact.

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Post #: 122
RE: Russian balance - 7/21/2021 2:38:02 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

It seems like it is doing more than that.


On top of been good killing machines in defense, each gun also reduce a little the chances that one retreats IIRC. Hence I assume the AT name is a reference (or a wink) to the fact that tank factors do the opposite?

Although not retreating is in some cases not necessarily good... Too many sub-variables to be sure until testing of overall effects (and by quite a few games).

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Post #: 123
RE: Russian balance - 7/21/2021 8:30:00 PM   
sveint


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New Soviet defense in testing. All mech corps disbanded, all pre-named rifle corps built, all <30% xp rifle corps garrisoned.




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Post #: 124
RE: Russian balance - 7/21/2021 9:10:20 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

all pre-named rifle corps built


I am just curious, but why not more? Especially if disbanding the mechs?

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Post #: 125
RE: Russian balance - 7/21/2021 9:59:55 PM   
sveint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

quote:

all pre-named rifle corps built


I am just curious, but why not more? Especially if disbanding the mechs?


You could go all in on rifle corps. But I started building armor instead.

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Post #: 126
RE: Russian balance - 7/22/2021 12:11:35 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

New Soviet defense in testing. All mech corps disbanded, all pre-named rifle corps built, all <30% xp rifle corps garrisoned.





I call this the Hedgehog Defence, but I have heard other names used. I would be interested to know if it works for you.

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Post #: 127
RE: Russian balance - 7/22/2021 1:35:03 AM   
Flaviusx


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Harder to pull off hedgehogs because in this game hexes that are taken from the enemy become immune to zoc effects. You can easily manipulate this to produce retreat results and corridors to advance. But I kind of like the idea of trashing all the mech. They are just not very cost effective now. You may as well forget about them until the end of 1942 when they grow up.

I'd rather have 10 or so armor and a bunch of infantry than all this garbage mech. With infantry now getting a garrison bonus, they are clearly superior in defense now than the early mech.

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Post #: 128
RE: Russian balance - 7/22/2021 1:49:34 AM   
Flaviusx


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Another thing I am seriously considering now with the Sovs: building some merchants before the war starts. That will help ease the BoA for the British.

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Post #: 129
RE: Russian balance - 7/22/2021 3:09:08 AM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

You could go all in on rifle corps. But I started building armor instead.


Thanks!

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Post #: 130
RE: Russian balance - 7/22/2021 4:52:12 PM   
stjeand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Harder to pull off hedgehogs because in this game hexes that are taken from the enemy become immune to zoc effects. You can easily manipulate this to produce retreat results and corridors to advance. But I kind of like the idea of trashing all the mech. They are just not very cost effective now. You may as well forget about them until the end of 1942 when they grow up.



Would be an interesting change the game to have it be that only the first unit entering a battle hex gets the immune to ZOC effects.

Sadly that is a game engine thing.

But if you think about it, it makes more sense. The enemy was guarding a hex...so other units did not need to extend their support there.
Once the hex falls the enemy moves in...that alerts the adjacent units that defenses have been breached and they change their defenses and exert their ZOC there.



But I look forward to attacking the USSR now to see what can be done.
Hopefully enough to make Russia fun again...

Though in my current game I have the german army in garrison mode. NOW I did get the full PP return for them switching...but now it costs slightly more to convert back...so will lose out a bit in the end.
Not to harsh overall. Don't think that will really overly affect the Germans.

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Post #: 131
RE: Russian balance - 7/22/2021 9:16:18 PM   
ncc1701e


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Wow - the impact of +2 guns is huge. One single Panzer Corps attacking an Infantry Rifle Corps (20% experience) at 4:1. The Infantry Rifle Corps holds.

Well, not a bad thing, in my second turn of Barbarossa end of May, 1941 as Russian, I have identified 13 Panzer corps and 3 Mechanized corps attacking me... They are some building masters here. They were, I hope.

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Post #: 132
RE: Russian balance - 7/23/2021 2:14:54 AM   
AstroBlues

 

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Was the Infantry Rifle Corps in garrison mode?

Ron

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Post #: 133
RE: Russian balance - 7/23/2021 5:32:41 AM   
ncc1701e


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Yes for having +2 guns

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Post #: 134
RE: Russian balance - 7/28/2021 4:56:18 AM   
sveint


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Counter-point, two panzers corps surrendered/overrun.




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< Message edited by sveint -- 7/28/2021 4:58:09 AM >

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Post #: 135
RE: Russian balance - 7/29/2021 12:06:32 AM   
Flaviusx


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After extensive testing I can report that the Sovs can definitely hold their ground better with garrisons. The lowly reserves are actually useful now, too.

Just garrison everything. It really slows things down for the Germans. Not so much in terms of losses, but the hit on their readiness is very noticeable. By the time they get to Leningrad and Moscow they run out of gas and will now tend to come up short. Trucks will only mitigate this to a limited extent. You can burn a truck on every mobile corps a turn and they are still going to be struggling and need a pause. It's possible to get something resembling a historical result now, the Soviets don't just get overrun.

You do have to build a ton of rifle corps, though. I'm trashing all the mech now. ALL of them. They're junk. All you need is infantry and maybe 8-10 armor and you are good to go. Don't even bother with mech until the end of 42. They are totally not a cost effective unit until then.

I'm still seeing the Soviets having real problems getting their experience up, though. You aren't going to cap this before the end of 1942, if that, and you probably aren't getting over 40% before 1942. It's just super slow grinding experience for the Soviets now.

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RE: Russian balance - 7/29/2021 12:13:54 AM   
Flaviusx


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I did this with no less than 15 mobile corps for the Axis, btw. (12 German and 3 Italian.) Gave them a massive invasion force. That was enough to get them to a historical stop line in 41 but there is none of this stuff about curbstomping the Soviets and grabbing Moscow easy anymore. So you can face even the best Axis war machine with some confidence now. You will get past 41, at any rate.

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RE: Russian balance - 7/29/2021 12:46:14 AM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

I'm still seeing the Soviets having real problems getting their experience up, though. You aren't going to cap this before the end of 1942, if that, and you probably aren't getting over 40% before 1942. It's just super slow grinding experience for the Soviets now.


From what I noticed in all my games is that it can vary by quite a lot. I have seen 50% in early 1943 but also in late 1941. Although both 41 and 43 are rare. Usually it seems to fall in 1942, first half. But still very random. In my actual game with Sveint, they reached 50% late... September 41 (at war since early March). A lot of battles however...

Talking land national XP of course not particular units which vary quite a lot and not air national XP which usually goes up only by 1 to 3 in the first six months! And 3 is actually lucky!

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Post #: 138
RE: Russian balance - 7/29/2021 7:43:39 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

After extensive testing I can report that the Sovs can definitely hold their ground better with garrisons. The lowly reserves are actually useful now, too.

...

I'm still seeing the Soviets having real problems getting their experience up, though. You aren't going to cap this before the end of 1942, if that, and you probably aren't getting over 40% before 1942. It's just super slow grinding experience for the Soviets now.


Great Flaviusx, if you are happy, I am happy. Regarding experience, it is super slow but is it really a problem now?


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Post #: 139
RE: Russian balance - 7/29/2021 8:37:16 PM   
Flaviusx


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The only way I can see maybe accelerating this is to launch a lot of low odds and suicidal attacks, preferably during the first winter. It might just be worth it. But it's going to be sheer luck how this ends up, and you could wind up throwing away a lot of production for little result.

Since virtually all your infantry is going to be garrisoned now, these attacks just got harder. The Soviet winter counteroffensive in this game is mostly a myth to begin with. It got even more so with this patch.

It sure would be nice if those Siberians came in with winterization built in, as everyone has been asking for since forever. It's just not cost effective to save up the specializations for this single purpose. I will always put on the elite specialization on an armor unit as those become available. It is practically the only way the Sovs can get a 10 point unit in the early days. You are going to be even more reliant on them than before for whatever counteroffensive punch you've got. Which is why you do need to build a few of them as a stiffener. (The mech, as I said, should be entirely ignored until the end of 42. They are not cost effective in defense compared to even a lowly reserve rifle army, and don't have the same punch as the armor. They are very expensive rifle armies for all practical purposes until their bonuses kick in and should be entirely scrapped early on.)

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RE: Russian balance - 7/29/2021 9:24:52 PM   
stjeand


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The problem with winterization for the USSR in 41 is...their units just can't move to fight. When snow is falling it usually takes all their movement to move into a ZOC. Then the Germans know what is there so just move back or move in bigger units to hold the ground since their armor has twice the movement.

NOW if Winterization included a movement bonus...maybe...but there seem to be so few "snowy" turns...just is not worth it unless it is free.

As for the Mech...yes they are not overly cost effective. Armies will win out almost always...until they gain movement.
BUT mech will retreat less...if you need a spot to hold and hold firm. Not a lot less due to less tanks but at least some.

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RE: Russian balance - 7/29/2021 9:57:31 PM   
Flaviusx


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A garrisoned rifle army will hold ground as well as, if not better, than the early mech and have a higher defensive CV to boot. The mech is just that bad. Even a 39 reserve rifle army in garrison mode will have a defensive CV of 6. Once you start producing regular rifle armies these are clearly superior in defense to the mech you start with in garrison mode.

Back when the mech flipped over to their grown up selves in early 42 it was worth keeping them. Now? Forget it. Trash the lot. October 1942 is a long ways off and you are better off building them from scratch at that point at a higher experience level than trying to preserve the ones you start with and somehow getting them blooded and topped off and upgrading them. You will get better service from the simple Red Army rifleman.

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RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 12:07:13 AM   
stjeand


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Actually it should now...here are the stats...

Infantry Str 20 Exp 30% Attack 3 Defense 3 (1940 Assault tech)

Firearms 3, Guns 2+2(garrison), Artillary 3, Tanks 0, AA 1, Def 4

Mech Str 30 Exp 20% (1940 Heavy Armor tech)

Firearms 4, Guns 2, Artillery 3, Tanks 3, AA 2, Def 7



Army has 2 more guns due to garrison.
Mech has 1 more firearm and 3 tanks. 3 Tanks will give -9% retreat if attacked by armor. 0% if attack by inf.

Overall they are "close"...

Main differences are:

1) Mech has 5 movement and 30 strength as well as 3 more defense.
2) Infantry costs 47 less PP once in Garrison mode.
3) Infantry costs less to move on rail than the Mech


Not sure which would be best...but I think I am leaning toward the infantry due to cost...but it would be nice to have the quicker movement early.

IF the unit lives then rather have the mech...but suspect that wont be the case.


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Post #: 143
RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 1:31:13 AM   
MagicMissile


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I agree with everything about the weather. I hope WP2 makes fighting in the winter turns easier. Historically quite a lot happened during winter turns which seem impossible to replicate in the game. Also make the game more active. As is now May-Sep active rest of the year pretty dead, NA excepted of course.

/MM

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Post #: 144
RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 2:49:04 AM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

3 Tanks will give -9% retreat if attacked by armor.


Actually, according to the manual, guns also reduce the chances one retreats. In defense, they actually both give -6% retreat chance.

So mechs would get a -30% vs -24% for the garrisoned inf. (infs that are also much cheaper too).

However (thinking out loud here) not sure 100% it is a obvious choice to scrap all those mechs. The ones with 10 strength (for example) only will bring a minimal amount of PPs back (50 I believe) but can be transformed into full ones for only 120 PPs instead of 300 (39 tech) for a new one (and it will still have almost 50sx; 47 or so I think).

Since one needs garrisons in the Black sea ports (and Archangel), why not use them for that (and other almost impregnable hexes that must still be occupied and where the already 30 steps one, even 1939, can do ok) and wait for the right time to repair?

So to make it simple: the 10 steps ones bring little PPs and the 30 steps one will each be replaced by about a little more than 1.5 infs corps each (taking the garrison saving into account too). Will the extra 10XP of infs be worth the -1 gun/tank factors and the -4 defense (and I believe the immediate gain of +2 gun/tank in January 1942)? Not 100% sure, could be a long term waste of PPs helping the Germans.

I can see having a few more infs on map, but by scrapping 290 steps of mechs, one gets 315 steps of infs. (I included an extra 25% - twice - since they will be garrisoned and allowed for more to be bought). So only a little more and the one already at 20+ strength will be much stronger in defense (7vs4) and also (if I understand the rules correctly) retreat less.

I agree that upgrading them and repairing them before 1942 is a waste, but scrapping them might actually also be a waste.


< Message edited by Nirosi -- 7/30/2021 2:53:14 AM >

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Post #: 145
RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 5:52:49 AM   
Flaviusx


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Guys, forget all this micro stuff. Look at the on map macro combat values.

Your 41 heavy armor tech mech might be at 5-6 CV. Your 41 tech rifle army in garrison mode is going to be rocking 8-9 CV on defense, even at low to mid 30s experience. And then you have to consider that mech is about 50% more expensive to produce, maintain, and upgrade. This is not a close call.

Even a mere 39 reserve rifle army at 30% experience is at 6 CV in garrison mode.

The Germans are going to have a more difficult time generating the necessary raw combat odds against a regular rifle army and even the reserves can give a good account of themselves now. And that's in clear. In any kind of terrain feature the rifle armies get that much more difficult.

The rifle armies rolling out of the production line get the benefit of whatever your present experience level is at. Your mech armies are going to be well below 30% and some of them down to 20% and are going to have to take some hard knocks first and get blooded and then you have to spend precious production to inefficiently top them off. I'd sooner feed that production into a reserve rifle army and get better value.

This game is all about two things: managing production, and experience. This micro stuff is not very important.


< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/30/2021 6:01:11 AM >


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RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 6:44:50 AM   
Flaviusx


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For 120 PPs I'd rather just buy a rifle corps than top off a mech corps that will be sitting on a port in the Black Sea doing nothing and gaining no experience and by the time you are able to put this guy in the front line to get him blooded (after October 1942) you will be able to simply outright purchase a brand new mech corps at or near 50% experience.

That guy vacationing in the Black Sea will be at 27% or whatever.

Scrapping the mech corps gives me 50 PP, plus another 120 in PPs not lost on opportunity costs in topping off these mech troops working on their Black Sea tans, and on top of that I don't have to spend 30 PPs a pop to tech them up to get even better tans.

And the cheap rifle corps can be garrisoned to return another 17 PPs.

Again, from the economic standpoint this is not a close call. That mech corps is a luxury item. It's not cost effective. You are always going to be better off simply purchasing one from scratch down the line. October 1942 is a long time to be working on a tan. There's a war going on here.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/30/2021 6:45:22 AM >


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RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 12:11:38 PM   
stjeand


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All I wanted to do was explain the differences as I saw them. Mech retreat less for sure...and move twice as fast.
Speed matters especially with the many German breakthroughs that happen. So keeping a few in reserve is never bad.
That is personal preference. I have to play around with just tons of inf to see if there are just so many they are basically breakthrough plugs.

Building? OH no don't build any. In fact I know many build armor but given that you can build 3 corps for 1 armor...I suspect that is also a mistake but that is another debate.

But the defenses will now have to be tested.

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Post #: 148
RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 12:41:20 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

Mech retreat less for sure...and move twice as fast.


I agree that this also important.

The already fulls mech are tougher to call (and could vary also with how much infs one need which depends also on the Axis OOB and skill). But I can see both sides.

But the weak ones at only 10 strength, I still believe it would be a waste. If one waits only 8 months or so (let's say march 1942 when Soviet XP should often be 50 or close and Mechs get their extra CV), then for a mere 120 PPs, it can be full repaired and still have an experience of 40. This unit seems to me more effective in defense for the same price.

The Soviets can build easily 15 more corps or so than the named ones just normally (and still keep ~1400-1500 PPs in reserve by Spring 1941). Should be enough to do ok without scrapping at least those 4 (I believe) that will just be replaced by ~ 2 infs (or ~4 counting the future opportunity cost) that will be much weaker in a few months. Not sure if the Soviets are that desperate in 1941 anymore.

However, repairing them before 1942 is most probably a bad idea. Those 120 PPs are indeed better for an extra infs early on for sure.

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 7/30/2021 12:42:44 PM >

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Post #: 149
RE: Russian balance - 7/30/2021 1:51:14 PM   
Flaviusx


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I'd rather build a fresh unit with an experience of 50 than babysit a mech cadre until October of 42. And it is not just 120 pps. It is also 30 x tech level. All this to get a unit which 20% weaker than a newly raised formation and you are going to have to find a way to bloody it up just so it can get to experience cap. I just don't get this. I'll trash that cadre every time, collect the 50 pps and avoid all the opportunity costs. Opportunity cost is a thing.

Imo, the Soviets have to ruthless about trashing formations generally. It's not just this mech. There will come a point in the war when you have to start disbanding rifle formations that are hopelessly behind in experience and feeding the manpower and production into newly raised units. The freshly raised formations can replace the out of date "veterans" on the front line.

Due to the peculiariaties of the game system, this is the most efficient way to get your army up to the experience cap. The Soviets constantly have to prune away formations that are obsolete and have no real opportunity of ever getting up to speed from the experience standpoint.

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