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RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 6:26:31 AM   
Lascar


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Logistics played a decisive role in the failure of Barbarossa. As it stands now, with the Russian rail lines easily converted, logistics has little impact on the Germans' ability to aggressively advance deep into Russia. At the very least the capacity to convert/repair RR hexes should be reduced to 2 per turn. The Germans had to take significant pauses in their advance because the panzers outpaced their logistic capabilities

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 61
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 8:54:05 AM   
MagicMissile


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In response to HarryB. Must have clicked something wrong.

I agree completely. We play and think the same .

/MM

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Post #: 62
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 9:04:00 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

Another game, the Western Allies are doing really well and sending 135 resources per turn. Soviet experience is 48%. Yet I have no chance against mobile panzers. I really need at least 7 moves for my tanks.


You don't need 7 operation points for your Tank Corps in July 1942. What you need, to stop the Germans, is to bring your based experience of 48% to your units. That's the current problem of 1942.

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Post #: 63
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 9:05:21 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Now with airunits nerfed ...

/MM


Air units nerfed? Sorry, when, where?

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Post #: 64
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 9:10:25 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

3. Increase the tech level of the Russian Reserve units to 41. Though I suppose a problem with this is what if the Germans invade in 1939 0r 40?


I understand that Alvaro has a problem with the current code to associate the current tech year level to a given unit already in the Deployment queue. For example, in WPP, some UK CV have automatically Carrier Operations 1944 even if UK does not care to discover Carrier Operations 1944...

Now for WPE, we can perfectly do a trade off and put all the reserve units to Assault 1940. German invading in 1939 means end of September 1939. The time for the Reserve armies to come, Assaut 1940 is not too far away.

For a Barbarossa in 1940, well, this is the perfect year.

For a normal Barbarossa in 1941, this is only one year away of Assault 1941 so there is a small gain here.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 7/17/2021 9:11:32 AM >


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Post #: 65
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 9:12:06 AM   
MagicMissile


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It was a long time ago probably at least a year. When the game was released you could bomb a unit to death which is not possible anymore. I think airunits could use a small buff from where they are now.

/MM

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Post #: 66
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 9:14:02 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

It was a long time ago probably at least a year. When the game was released you could bomb a unit to death which is not possible anymore. I think airunits could use a small buff from where they are now.

/MM


Oh I remember now. Thank you

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Post #: 67
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 9:18:42 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I think there are a number of reasons why the Germans are now stronger. But the biggest is probably that with the change in the shatter/no retreat rule it is no longer permanently losing units in France. Don't get me wrong, I love this Rule change, but this is one of the consequences of it.


With the new shattering rule, Soviets have also a small possibility to retrieve lost units.

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Post #: 68
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 9:27:51 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

1. Change the rail repair rate to 2 hexes per turn from the existing 3. This may slow down not only the German advance in 41 and 42, but also the Russian advance from 43 on (if they survive). I don't believe this alone will be enough to help the Russians survive 41, but it is a good place to start.


While I am tempted by this modification, I would like to recall everyone why the rail repair rate was increased to 3 hexes per turn. This was to counter the Soviets strategy to withdraw without even a fight and avoid catastrophic losses in 1941.

It is true that we are all better German player now so more dangerous. But, I am worried about this strategy to come back. Now, Soviets are obliged to fight on the borders.

There is another aspect that could limit the Germans. Nobody is talking about oil. Urban legend or not the Germans was worried about oil.

Since we are better player, since we have the new shattering rule, we can have 12-14(?) mobile corps in the East with the Germans. Why don't we put a rule like the following:

If (German mobile corps <= 10 mobile corps) then
-> 2 oil consumed per corps (I don't remember if this is 2 or not - I am away from my computer right now)

If (German mobile corps > 10 mobile corps) then
-> 3 oil consumed per corps

Perhaps it can also limit the German operations everywhere and especially on the Eastern front.

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Post #: 69
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 10:31:24 AM   
Flaviusx


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Air units aren't in a bad place right now, maybe you could slightly tweak their effect on readiness upwards, but otherwise I don't want to go back to the flying artillery of old days that could just blow up ground units.

The change in the shatter rule was a good one and I'd leave it alone and I don't think this is having that great of an effect on the Soviets. It's the experience nerf that is killing them more than anything else. I'm also not super thrilled with the new delay on mobile units, either. I think all this stuff ought to be reverted. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the prior balance in the eastern front. The problem was in the west.

Alvaro threw in this other stuff for the sole reason, and he has never really justified this, of making a 1942 Barbarossa possible. Nobody is doing this. Everybody took advantage of these nerfs to turbocharge their 41 Barbarossa. The 42 Barbarossa never made sense, not even with these nerfs. I'd still say it is not very doable. You give the Soviets a free extra year of production and you just cannot claw that time back.

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Post #: 70
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 1:01:40 PM   
MagicMissile


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Agree we dont want the old days but a slight buff in their effect on effectiveness I think would not be bad.

/MM


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Post #: 71
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 7:07:51 PM   
stjeand


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I would like to test if changing rail repair to 2 hexes rather than 1 would change the war...

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Post #: 72
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 7:44:46 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I would like to test if changing rail repair to 2 hexes rather than 1 would change the war...


Sorry what was the rail repair rate at the time of the Soviet fleeing strategy? One or two?
I honestly don't remember.

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 73
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 8:21:37 PM   
stjeand


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3.

A game I played in the past it was set to 1.

The question would be does it matter or is the German advance slow enough that 2 or 3 is not an issue?

Being that the issue Germany had in Russia was...supply due to the terrain this might simulate it a bit more.

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Post #: 74
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 8:38:19 PM   
ncc1701e


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It seems it was 2. Here is Alvaro's view on it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4801886

"So here is the deal..... There was one strategy where the Russians simply ran away. It was a 100% successful strategy to thwart the Germans. So I increase rail repair rate from 2 to 3 hexes per turn. The Russians should defend SOME forward to slow down the advance and not just run away 100% of the time never engaging. What was happening was that the Germans would outrun the rail and have to wait and the Russians didn't have to do anything. Then just wave hit them in 1942 and 1942 and tada dead Germany. With the 3 rail repair rate I think that is enough to force the Russians to defend some. Basically all games should hit the historical line or close to it by the end of the year. With the new winter supply penalties and bonuses to winter combat specialization it should allow the Soviets to mount a winter offensive."


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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 75
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 8:42:01 PM   
ncc1701e


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And funny enough in the same thread, I have asked this question:

quote:

Why the Soviet Reserve Armies are coming with an Advancement of Assault 1939 instead of Assault 1940 or better Assault 1941?


Alvaro's answer was:

quote:

Because they sucked and had crappy weapons and need to be updated. You don't get an uber-army with modern equipment from the start.


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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 76
RE: Russian balance - 7/17/2021 10:27:08 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Just food for thought: reserve armies could also be a mix of some 39 tech (people milita) and some with 40 tech ("normal" reservists). No need for all or none.

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Post #: 77
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 12:14:06 AM   
Lascar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

It seems it was 2. Here is Alvaro's view on it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4801886

"So here is the deal..... There was one strategy where the Russians simply ran away. It was a 100% successful strategy to thwart the Germans. So I increase rail repair rate from 2 to 3 hexes per turn. The Russians should defend SOME forward to slow down the advance and not just run away 100% of the time never engaging. What was happening was that the Germans would outrun the rail and have to wait and the Russians didn't have to do anything. Then just wave hit them in 1942 and 1942 and tada dead Germany. With the 3 rail repair rate I think that is enough to force the Russians to defend some. Basically all games should hit the historical line or close to it by the end of the year. With the new winter supply penalties and bonuses to winter combat specialization it should allow the Soviets to mount a winter offensive."


Is anyone seeing the Russians mounting a major winter offensive in the winter of 42-42? I haven't seen it, because they simply don't have the units to do it with. A few minor counter-attacks perhaps -- that's it.

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Post #: 78
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 12:25:17 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Agree we dont want the old days but a slight buff in their effect on effectiveness I think would not be bad.

/MM




+1

I have said many times that air units are underpowered compared to ground units. Consider:
1. Air units receive no supply benefit from being within 5 hexes of an HQ like ground units do.
2. Air units cannot be given specialties.
3. Tech advances for Ground Attack aircraft only increase its Tactical strength by 3 from 39 to 45. Meanwhile Assault infantry gain 3 firearms, 1 gun and 2 artillery. This means that as the war progresses air units become increasingly less effective than ground units. A British 39 Tech Ground Attack air unit will have a 5 Tactical strength. A 45 Tech ground Attack will have a 7 tactical strength. Meanwhile a 39 British Assault Infantry will have a 7 Attack Strength, but a 45 Tech Assault infantry will have a 12 Strength.

I would propose that the Tactical strength of all air units (even fighters) be increased by 1 at the 39 Tech level, and then allow for an additional plus 1 between 40 tech and 45 tech. This would not be that significant an increase. this would help the Axis in Russia, but would also help the Western Allies. So if this improvement is made than the Russians will definitely need some sort of boost.

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Post #: 79
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 12:28:27 AM   
Flaviusx


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He's wrong about the reserve armies, at least partially so.

The initial waves that came in during July and August were up to scratch. Later on they got much sketchier and by the end of the year they were scrounging for scraps and rifles.

You could represent this by, I suppose, have the first 8 come in at 1941 assault tech, the next 8 at 40, and the rest at 39 tech. The reserve army waves were not uniform in composition or equipment and tended to degrade in both over the course of the year. The initial ones were about as good as the pre war regulars and indeed many of them were already in the process of forming when the war began. They were not emergency levies.

By December you have outfits like Golikov's 10th Army assembling for the Moscow counteroffensive that were struggling to find 10,000 rifles among them. But the Germans had shot their wad and just having those bodies on the ground was good enough to push back Guderian near Tula. (Contrary to popular belief most of the Soviet reserve armies coming in late in the year were not Siberian regulars, but rather scraps like the 10th Army doing with whatever was at hand.)

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/18/2021 12:31:03 AM >


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RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 12:43:36 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

It seems it was 2. Here is Alvaro's view on it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4801886

"So here is the deal..... There was one strategy where the Russians simply ran away. It was a 100% successful strategy to thwart the Germans. So I increase rail repair rate from 2 to 3 hexes per turn. The Russians should defend SOME forward to slow down the advance and not just run away 100% of the time never engaging. What was happening was that the Germans would outrun the rail and have to wait and the Russians didn't have to do anything. Then just wave hit them in 1942 and 1942 and tada dead Germany. With the 3 rail repair rate I think that is enough to force the Russians to defend some. Basically all games should hit the historical line or close to it by the end of the year. With the new winter supply penalties and bonuses to winter combat specialization it should allow the Soviets to mount a winter offensive."




I didn't play the game when it first came out, but I am skeptical that this runaway strategy would work with the current rules even if rail repair was reduced from 3 to 2. For one thing the Baltic States rail are automatically repaired, so this run away would not do much if anything to slow the advance on Leningrad. For another there would be no difference for the first two turns of Barbarossa as rail lines are not repaired on these turns anyway. The differences would not show up until turns 3. If the Russians run away it means that they are not gaining any National Morale/Experience increases. Now that they start at 30% this is more important than ever.

In any event I for one would like to try this. I will play the Axis and whoever plays me can use this Runaway strategy.


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Post #: 81
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 12:50:12 AM   
Flaviusx


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The runaway strategy just invites an April invasion anyways. I don't think it was ever very effective against a German prepared to go early even in mud conditions.

Magic Missile was famous for launching mud offensives in April, as a matter of fact, and he won every time going early like this, weather or no. I'm a little surprised people stopped doing this. It would be even more effective now than it was before. Most folks won't start until they get clear in all weather zones now, and this imo is probably not optimal. There is no real penalty to starting early now and the earlier the better. Light rain is fine. Only across the board the heavy rains in April or May would dissuade me. Clear in one part of the front is more than good enough.

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Post #: 82
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 12:57:45 AM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

1. Air units receive no supply benefit from being within 5 hexes of an HQ like ground units do.


Well they get part of it. They do not get the +4% (at best) inside the recovery formula, but the recovery formula also takes into account the map supply level than can be increased (to a point; 8 max I think) by 1 within HQ range.

True, most of the time air units are on rails at level 9 anyway, but in some place like Africa, they might get a third of the total bonus a inf. gets by just been on an hex with an extra map level.

But anyway, I agree that they should have the same full effect as a land unit.

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 7/18/2021 12:58:41 AM >

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Post #: 83
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 2:16:26 AM   
MagicMissile


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Yes if the Soviets didn´t set up units at the border there was a very low cost not to invade as early as possible to get the rail repair going. I think the earliest I did was 2nd turn of February. Today people defend at the border so attacking in mud would be more difficult so maybe wouldnt work out so good. But I wouldn´t mind trying lowering it down to 2 again to see how that would play out.

/MM

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Post #: 84
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 7:29:35 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

It seems it was 2. Here is Alvaro's view on it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4801886

"So here is the deal..... There was one strategy where the Russians simply ran away. It was a 100% successful strategy to thwart the Germans. So I increase rail repair rate from 2 to 3 hexes per turn. The Russians should defend SOME forward to slow down the advance and not just run away 100% of the time never engaging. What was happening was that the Germans would outrun the rail and have to wait and the Russians didn't have to do anything. Then just wave hit them in 1942 and 1942 and tada dead Germany. With the 3 rail repair rate I think that is enough to force the Russians to defend some. Basically all games should hit the historical line or close to it by the end of the year. With the new winter supply penalties and bonuses to winter combat specialization it should allow the Soviets to mount a winter offensive."




I didn't play the game when it first came out, but I am skeptical that this runaway strategy would work with the current rules even if rail repair was reduced from 3 to 2. For one thing the Baltic States rail are automatically repaired, so this run away would not do much if anything to slow the advance on Leningrad. For another there would be no difference for the first two turns of Barbarossa as rail lines are not repaired on these turns anyway. The differences would not show up until turns 3. If the Russians run away it means that they are not gaining any National Morale/Experience increases. Now that they start at 30% this is more important than ever.

In any event I for one would like to try this. I will play the Axis and whoever plays me can use this Runaway strategy.


I agree, the Soviets need to fight to increase based experience. It looks like suicide to withdraw without fighting.

I am wondering if rail repair rate is a variable contained in the engine or in the scenario. If this is inside the scenario, perhaps we can copy/paste Europe 1939 and modify just the rail repair rate from 3 to 2 to do a test.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 85
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 1:35:23 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

I agree, the Soviets need to fight to increase based experience. It looks like suicide to withdraw without fighting.


It does not have to be an all or none. Some units (the start ones) can be sacrificed to do the fighting while others withdraw to survive (at least try to, nothing is ever sure) and then do the fighting in Winter. With massive attacks in Winter one can control loses, and which units improve first, much better. I usually have gained a big chunk of my experience (both for units and the national one) during the first winter.

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Post #: 86
RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 4:25:11 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Assuming Barbarossa begins on the May 9, 1941 turn and that the Axis advance at a relatively rapid pace, below are the railway supply heads at the beginning of every 3rd turn. The point being that even if the Axis advance quickly they are still pretty much guaranteed to never be very far from their supply. In my AAR with Sveint where I was the Axis I think I advanced at a pretty good pace and yet my lead units were always in at least supply level 5 or better (except for the one turn I goofed and 2 of my units were put out of supply).

JUNE 6, 1941




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< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 7/18/2021 4:34:52 PM >

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RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 4:26:06 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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JULY 18, 1941





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RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 4:27:36 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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AUGUST 29, 1941






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RE: Russian balance - 7/18/2021 4:37:08 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Below are screenshots of where the supply lines would be if the Axis advance at a good pace but rail repair is reduced to 2 hexes per turn. Still pretty good in my opinion.

JUNE 6, 1941






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