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Countering 31K Zero Sweeps

 
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Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 12:34:43 PM   
wga8888


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My IJN Guadalcanal scenario has an annoying habit of conducting 20+ plane Zero sweeps of my forward bases (PM, Lunga). My P40/KH1, P39s, F4Fs cannot fly that high, arrive at their max altitude in small numbers with minimal maneuverability & are bounced. My side loses at a 10:1 ratio, and more often the irrational 10:0 ratio. Is there a counter for this I am not seeing? Seems to be an obvious IJN tactic given game design.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 12:50:39 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wga8888

Is there a counter for this I am not seeing?


Yes.

You have pointed out that your planes perform poorly at high altitude. Why deploy them at that altitude?

Play to your strengths. Stack your planes at 1k-3k altitude. That way the Zeros will either miss the CAP altogether, or the fight will take place much lower down.

With superior Allied radar, you should still have sufficient time to respond to bombing raids in force.

Lowpe and Obvert have good commentary on how to get effective results by layering your CAP like this.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 7/7/2021 12:51:03 PM >

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 12:54:58 PM   
wga8888


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My planes are CAP at typically 15K or 20K depending on type depending on Manueverabilty drop-off). They climb up automatically to engage sweeps. or are just bounced at CAP mission altitude. IJN opponent wisely plans bombing raids after several sweeps. Some day I will have P38Gs but not this month.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 1:08:12 PM   
Maallon

 

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As mentioned use layered cap.
For example when you have two squadrons P-40s place one squadron at 15k feet and the other at 14k feet. That way every Zero that dives on one of your P-40s that is at 14k feet will in turn be dived on from one of your P-40s at 15k feet. And when they dive on one of the 15k P-40s they are at least on the same level as the rest of your P-40s.
Also it is very important to train your pilots in def skill, so they can survive the initial dive from the zero. The most efficient way to do this is to train let them train ground attack at 100 feet altitude.
And lastly numerical superiority is a large factor in air combat.

In general avoid to try countering your opponent in something he is strong in. If I would see that you try to counter my high altitude sweeps with an high altitude CAP, the next turn I would likely just send my bombers in at a low altitude as your CAP cannot react to them with that altitude difference. Try to make your opponent play by your rules and don't follow his.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 1:10:07 PM   
geofflambert


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Like mm said, put them on the deck. Are his bombing raids effective? If not consider not putting up CAP.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 1:13:19 PM   
geofflambert


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There's really a good chance they won't see you at 31k and your guys won't be able to reach them anyway. But if bombers come at 10 to 15k your fighters will reach them and they won't need no stinkin' altitude advantage to knock them down.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 1:53:13 PM   
RangerJoe


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Avoid the CAP, counter the bombers.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 4:31:04 PM   
Leandros


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Experienced pilots make a great difference. If they do not have the experience do not let them loose.

Fred

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 4:38:31 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Experienced pilots make a great difference. If they do not have the experience do not let them loose.

Fred



Bears repeating.

Pilots with poor stats just die. My fighter pilots don't go anywhere near the front until they've Air and Defence skill in the 65-70 range.

EXP is a bit harder, but aim for 50 EXP as the benchmark for "this guy may just be more of a danger to the enemy that the Allied air losses figure".

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/7/2021 10:24:38 PM   
wga8888


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thanks for the insight. Scenario is Aug 42 to Apr 43. In Oct 42, IJN has many advantages just as in history. It is just a game. But it is how I spend my idle time, but only play against human opposition.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 12:04:18 PM   
Alpha77

 

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I do not know how much AA the Allies have in this scen...but generally when I play the GC then at a certain point the IJ bombers become ineffective to bomb bigger Allied bases. Mostly because of many AA units and better radar of Allies. Also build forts which limit damage. Then you do not even need CAP (only to protect ships)..

Also "general rule" Allied bombers are better, for some reason even when having comparable load. I do not mean 4Es but Allied 2Es compared to IJ 2Es.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/10/2021 12:06:00 PM >

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 12:22:40 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

1. I do not know how much AA the Allies have in this scen...but generally when I play the GC then at a certain point the IJ bombers become ineffective to bomb bigger Allied bases. Mostly because of many AA units and better radar of Allies. Also build forts which limit damage. Then you do not even need CAP (only to protect ships)..

2. Also "general rule" Allied bombers are better, for some reason even when having comparable load. I do not mean 4Es but Allied 2Es compared to IJ 2Es.

1. That sounds reasonable.
2. Perhaps the game creators have put in some points for more sturdy allied bombers? Sounds reasonable, too.

Fred

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River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 12:24:58 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

1. I do not know how much AA the Allies have in this scen...but generally when I play the GC then at a certain point the IJ bombers become ineffective to bomb bigger Allied bases. Mostly because of many AA units and better radar of Allies. Also build forts which limit damage. Then you do not even need CAP (only to protect ships)..

2. Also "general rule" Allied bombers are better, for some reason even when having comparable load. I do not mean 4Es but Allied 2Es compared to IJ 2Es.

1. That sounds reasonable.
2. Perhaps the game creators have put in some points for more sturdy allied bombers? Sounds reasonable, too.

Fred


2. Armour and higher durability.

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 12:26:53 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Helen IIb has comparable stats to eg. Mitchels iirc only 1 more dur and both have armor 1.. almost all "frontline" IJA bombers are the IIb version (only 2 iirc still IIa). I use the older bombers as ASW..

Helen has even some stats better (in game at least)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/10/2021 12:30:13 PM >

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 1:25:21 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Helen IIb has comparable stats to eg. Mitchels iirc only 1 more dur and both have armor 1.. almost all "frontline" IJA bombers are the IIb version (only 2 iirc still IIa). I use the older bombers as ASW..

Helen has even some stats better (in game at least)


the Helen works well for me, at least not much worse than the Mitchell, the bombload being the main disadvantage as the Mitchell carries 50% more. But then I never bomb Allied bases later on when there is considerable AA present, just not worth it usually.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 7/10/2021 1:26:09 PM >


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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 1:33:41 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Same here Castor re. Allied bases - guess I was expecting more when bombing Allied units in the OPEN and they having no heavy AA with them. ASFAIK Indian/Brits armor and most infantry have only AA MGs and some Bofors (which I avoid) - there is no big AA in the hex. Yes weather is a factor, but I had eg. a smaller unit wiped 100% out by iirc Wellingtons and Mitchells in the same area of the map...well need to live with it

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/10/2021 1:34:32 PM >

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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 1:37:24 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Same here Castor re. Allied bases - guess I was expecting more when bombing Allied units in the OPEN and they having no heavy AA with them. ASFAIK Indian/Brits armor and most infantry have only AA MGs and some Bofors (which I avoid) - there is no big AA in the hex. Yes weather is a factor, but I had eg. a smaller unit wiped 100% out by iirc Wellingtons and Mitchells in the same area of the map...well need to live with it



If you look into my AAR, in the first third of it there are hundreds and hundreds of IJAAF bombers bombing the Chinese into the stone age, they had no chance against my 500 IJ medium bombers and a lot of credit on the victory in China is going to the aiforce and I was mostly bombing units as we have a hr on strategic bombing

500 Mitchells would have done better though as they carry as many bombs as 750 Helens but then I was producing 150 Helens per month and one doesn't get 100 Mitchells as the Allied

< Message edited by castor troy -- 7/10/2021 1:38:16 PM >


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RE: Countering 31K Zero Sweeps - 7/10/2021 2:36:30 PM   
Moltrey


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You may already know this Bill, but some P-40 squadrons in the Philippines have many more pilots than aircraft at war start (there may be other examples as well).

For some reason, the game will have the experienced and higher-rated pilots "greyed out" or non-active, while the ones with 30-50 ratings are flying. Unchanged you end up losing airframes and pilots almost guaranteed.
Do yourself a big favor and prior to starting the war, check the Pilots (at the bottom of the squadron screen) and perhaps swap a few around and send the less capable ones into the pool and get them trained up for later use- you're gonna need them!

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