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Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 1:35:39 PM   
Lobster


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Things like this make me wonder why anyone would even bother devoting large blocks of their life creating scenarios. Certainly is news to me that as an author you have no rights over your own creation:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I remember we had someone some years back "updating" all MB scenario. Updating in so far that they were loaded and saved so that they were playable right away in TOAWIV. At least I have now Version 4.0, while officially 3.7 was afaik the latest.

A tweaked & fixed version would indeed be interesting, but here we have the same problem as back then. Discussion started if it was allowed to modify the scenario without the designers permission. Not sure if the thread was removed, at least I can't find it anymore.



While it may be a nice gesture to "get" designer permission to modify their scenarios, it is not
"illegal" in any way. Fair Use Doctrine.
The scenario police aren't going to come knocking on your door, and if they or Matrix or whomever tried to sue or enjoin you from doing so, they would be laughed out of (American) courts.

Source: law reader for over 20 years at Baron & Budd PC and Arter Hadden PC.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he (Daniel McBride) did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?

Edit: Rugged Defense agreed to his wishes and removed his scenarios.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?


He does not have that right. Fair Use doctrine.



_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.
Post #: 1
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 1:42:11 PM   
golden delicious


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Legally I think it would be extremely hard to go after someone for publishing an edited version of a scenario without the original author's permission. The key thing here is that there is no revenue involved; no-one to my knowledge has ever paid for a TOAW scenario, other than as bundled with a new release of the game. As such it would fall under fair use just the same as if I posted a photograph I found on Google Images.

However, as I've said elsewhere, I think it's very clearly morally wrong to republish someone else's substantial work without seeking permission (or if permission is refused), even if credit is properly given. As the community is quite small, I'd suggest to any designers affected by this that they could simply make a post to explain their position and it should have the necessary effect.

Here, I'm speaking as someone who's been on both sides of this- having adapted Jeremy MacDonald's Fall Grau and also having had Silvanski convert my rather sketchy Alternative World War II scenario into Trotsky's War. In both cases, the original designer's permission was sought and obtained.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/24/2021 1:46:00 PM >


_____________________________

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"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
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Post #: 2
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 1:47:38 PM   
Zovs


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So what if you can't contact the author?

I really don't see it as that big of a deal. I am pretty sure that Norm created some of the original scenarios and some of the folks that did some of the scenarios in 1998 and 2003 have moved on and who knows if they are still alive or if they just moved on to other things.

As long as someone gives credit I don't think its as "evil" as some are suggesting.

Now if someone took an existing scenario and changed its name and took credit for it that would be wrong. But modifying a scenario with our with out the authors "permission" and putting on the web for others to play is okay and not a big deal.

_____________________________


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Post #: 3
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 1:58:41 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Certainly anyone can mod any scenario however they like for their own personal use.

Posting it on one of the depositories is kind of sketchy, though. I had someone do that with CFNA who had only modded the colors of the black shirt units.

But, having the scenario included in any TOAW release would require a higher standard (as the designers of FITE can attest).

_____________________________

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Post #: 4
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 2:15:27 PM   
Lobster


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Like you said Zovs, if you've made every effort to contact the original scenario designer you've done all you can. I'd wager the majority can't be contacted when it comes to older scenarios. So no, it's not a bad thing to update their scenario. I'd put thier name as the original designer right after the title so there is no mistake. However, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing anything they want. I won't use a scenario that someone has modified against the original authors permission. I would not take a scenario made by someone active on the forum and modify that without their permission. That would be a kick in the teeth.

I just hope everyone is on the same page when it comes to respecting the work, sometimes measured in years, people put into these scenarios.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 5
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 2:23:34 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

So what if you can't contact the author?


"without seeking permission (or if permission is refused)"

i.e. if you try and you can't get hold of the person then that's too bad for the designer. Most designers include an email address and those that don't can be Googled. For my part I use the same email address I was on in 2002 so it's pretty easy to get hold of me.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/24/2021 2:24:51 PM >


_____________________________

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
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Post #: 6
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 3:06:03 PM   
76mm


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I'm not a copyright lawyer but don't believe that modifying a scenario would actually fall within "Fair Use" doctrine, which is more intended for use in reviews, parodies, etc. Modifying a scenario, on the other hand, is more like taking someone's novel, changing some bits, maybe adding a chapter or two, and then distributing it. Not the same IMHO.

That said, as others have pointed out, as long as you're distributing it for free, it is hard to imagine ending up in court for this kind of thing, since it seems a designer would be hard-pressed to show damages for unauthorized use of his own free scenario.

I agree with those that say that you should make a best-efforts attempt to contact the developer seeking their permission, but if they can't be reached after a good-faith effort, then I'd say go ahead.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 7
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 3:09:21 PM   
golden delicious


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It sounds like we're largely in violent agreement on this one.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 8
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 4:24:02 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

It sounds like we're largely in violent agreement on this one.




_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 9
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 4:26:13 PM   
Lobster


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Not to mention that there are literally hundreds of old scenarios that would have to be modified to work properly with TOAWIV


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http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 10
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 5:30:48 PM   
Zovs


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Well that is the point. I have modified around 30 or so, plus I made 20 graphic only updates to some of the stock scenarios. But it seems that Bob would be opposed to having them in TOAW. So they will sit on my HDD and no one will really get to see or play them I guess...except for me, but where is the fun in that lol...

Anyway back to JTS for now...

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
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(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 11
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 5:34:03 PM   
golden delicious


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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well that is the point. I have modified around 30 or so, plus I made 20 graphic only updates to some of the stock scenarios. But it seems that Bob would be opposed to having them in TOAW. So they will sit on my HDD and no one will really get to see or play them I guess...except for me, but where is the fun in that lol...


I would consider "personal use" to extend to playing PBEM, for what it's worth.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 12
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 7:27:34 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well that is the point. I have modified around 30 or so, plus I made 20 graphic only updates to some of the stock scenarios. But it seems that Bob would be opposed to having them in TOAW. So they will sit on my HDD and no one will really get to see or play them I guess...except for me, but where is the fun in that lol...

Anyway back to JTS for now...


Are you aware of this sale? https://john-tiller-software.myshopify.com/collections/sale-items?mc_cid=1119a356fc&mc_eid=9049f86848


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 13
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 7:27:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13038
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well that is the point. I have modified around 30 or so, plus I made 20 graphic only updates to some of the stock scenarios. But it seems that Bob would be opposed to having them in TOAW. So they will sit on my HDD and no one will really get to see or play them I guess...except for me, but where is the fun in that lol...

Anyway back to JTS for now...


I didn't say that.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 14
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 8:53:23 PM   
Zovs


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Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well that is the point. I have modified around 30 or so, plus I made 20 graphic only updates to some of the stock scenarios. But it seems that Bob would be opposed to having them in TOAW. So they will sit on my HDD and no one will really get to see or play them I guess...except for me, but where is the fun in that lol...

Anyway back to JTS for now...


Are you aware of this sale? https://john-tiller-software.myshopify.com/collections/sale-items?mc_cid=1119a356fc&mc_eid=9049f86848



Yes I picked up 23 titles. There are still 24 titles I want to get but not this year.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 15
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 8:57:57 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5881
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well that is the point. I have modified around 30 or so, plus I made 20 graphic only updates to some of the stock scenarios. But it seems that Bob would be opposed to having them in TOAW. So they will sit on my HDD and no one will really get to see or play them I guess...except for me, but where is the fun in that lol...

Anyway back to JTS for now...


I didn't say that.


Well at one point I can upload my color only mods and the other 20 to 30 mods and people can do what they want with them. I think I turned some really good scenarios into really great scenarios by several of the things I posted elsewhere.

I give full credit to each original designer and clearly mark up my changes as (I am on good terms with Trey and I am sure he would not mind, but I'll re-contact him again):

CHANGE LOG

Version 3.0
12/12/2020 - by Don Lazov
- Converted to TOAW IV
- Updated and reformatted Scenario Briefing
- Corrected all the spelling and grammatical errors.
- Created new color file for counters
- Modified the color of the counters to be more like board war game counters
- Made some slight adjustments to some of the unit's icon symbols and backgrounds
- Adjusted all Supply Points for both sides to come into alignment with new TOAW IV supply rules
- Added and adjusted Supply Points
- Added Attrition Divider and Max Rounds Per Battle
- Made some very minor road and rail changes for ascetics
- Changed map text for all Nations to use the new larger sized fonts
- Changed map text for all rivers, lakes, and seas to use the blue font
- Added to the map the new icon for Capitals

Version 2.3
- Trey Marshall
- For version Vol III v3.0.0.0
* Added VPs in addition to the Berlin capture Instant Death. A draw will constitute a front line along the West Wall and Brenner Pass. To get an Allied victory, Allies must capture significant German cities and capture of Berlin is an Instant Allied Major Victory.
* Turns were decreased to 102 turns which is May 1st which was when the Germans unconditionally surrendered, and Berlin fell to the Russians. The Western Allies are now on a timetable to beat the Russians to Berlin.
* Some fortification lines in Italy were redrawn
* Completely redone StuG Brigades - should now be more historical
* German Home Reserve divisions were given static orders so they cannot be used until the Allies near the German border.
* German air transport points were buffed up just enough to allow them to drop one airborne regiment.
* Added Italian Partisans
* Fixed some German reentry hexes
* Overhaul of Commonwealth forces as well as added some German and other Allied forces
* Added beginning Axis Replacements and a large pool of replacements that filter in on Turn 18 to replicate German Feldersatz Units in each division
* Made Rhine River unfordable
* Reduced German Loss Intolerance to 25%. This will reduce Allied VPs for destroying German units to 25%. Germans will not have to worry about losses as much as the Allies from a VP standpoint.
* Allies may choose their invasion beaches with the Theatre Options on Turn 1.
* Allied supply points along the Atlantic will not appear until the Allies capture the ports and/or when the ports are repaired.


_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 16
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 9:20:37 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well that is the point. I have modified around 30 or so, plus I made 20 graphic only updates to some of the stock scenarios. But it seems that Bob would be opposed to having them in TOAW. So they will sit on my HDD and no one will really get to see or play them I guess...except for me, but where is the fun in that lol...

Anyway back to JTS for now...


Are you aware of this sale? https://john-tiller-software.myshopify.com/collections/sale-items?mc_cid=1119a356fc&mc_eid=9049f86848



Yes I picked up 23 titles. There are still 24 titles I want to get but not this year.


Holy carp. Good job.

My favorite Panzer Campaign title is Moscow 42. Normandy for Panzer Battles. I have the two Strategic War titles but not done much with them.

Was thinking of doing a knock off of one of the Moscow 42 scenarios. Not sure.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/24/2021 9:22:15 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 17
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 9:58:39 PM   
Zovs


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I have both the strategic they are ok but don’t capture me like Panzer Campaign and CW and Nappy ones do. I have one PB the North Africa one it’s pretty awesome.

Really getting into both the Nappy and CW ones. Moscow 42 is one I don’t have yet I have most of the rest of the PzC series (ie sans 5).

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 18
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 10:22:21 PM   
Lobster


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You have to get Moscow 42. It has Typhoon and late 41/early 42 plus the Moscow 42 what if.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 19
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/24/2021 11:20:02 PM   
Rescue193

 

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Oh dear!

Copyright, copyright law, is such a murky multi-jurisdictional minefield its hard to know where to begin.

Broadly speaking, if an author designs a scenario using (whatever version of) TOAW software to be played on TOAW software and then publishes that scenario (in whatever form) as "free to use" then obviously anyone can use, and amend, said scenario as they choose. However, the copyright of the scenario remains with the original author.

If the second author (I'll call him or her the "updater" to simplify the syntax) publishes a new, different, version of the scenario as "free to use", acknowledges the work of the original author (out of politeness if nothing else) then the "updater" is on pretty safe ground.

The problems arise if the "updater" publishes amendments to an "original scenario" included with the game without the copyright holders permission, or publishes an amended version of another author's work, passing off as his own or seeking benefit or reward from so doing. Then you're messing with copyright infringement and/or copyright theft. But at that point you're getting into serious "lawyer-billing" territory and I doubt if there is sufficient reward to be had in arguing over a TOAW scenario to make such shenanigans worthwhile.

Personally, I've been tinkering a with a specific TOAW scenario for a few years and I've tweaked OOBs, corrected stuff that was just plain wrong and incorporated various bits and pieces of graphics that, to my mind, make it better. In the unlikely event I ever get to the point that I want to share what I've done, I'll make every reasonable attempt to seek the original author's permission, before I post my version of "his" scenario. It won't be mine, merely my version of the thing "he" created.

I'm not sure where the concept of "Free Use Doctrine" falls within all this. I doubt that updating a scenario from version X to version Y could be considered an heinous crime providing the "updater" didn't claim authorship of the original scenario - that would be like a translator claiming credit for writing the original novel. I guess that, as with most things, the law follows the money. Here, I would hope, that good manners would follow respect for the efforts of the original author.



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 20
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/26/2021 1:48:08 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Things like this make me wonder why anyone would even bother devoting large blocks of their life creating scenarios. Certainly is news to me that as an author you have no rights over your own creation:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I remember we had someone some years back "updating" all MB scenario. Updating in so far that they were loaded and saved so that they were playable right away in TOAWIV. At least I have now Version 4.0, while officially 3.7 was afaik the latest.

A tweaked & fixed version would indeed be interesting, but here we have the same problem as back then. Discussion started if it was allowed to modify the scenario without the designers permission. Not sure if the thread was removed, at least I can't find it anymore.



While it may be a nice gesture to "get" designer permission to modify their scenarios, it is not
"illegal" in any way. Fair Use Doctrine.
The scenario police aren't going to come knocking on your door, and if they or Matrix or whomever tried to sue or enjoin you from doing so, they would be laughed out of (American) courts.

Source: law reader for over 20 years at Baron & Budd PC and Arter Hadden PC.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he (Daniel McBride) did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?

Edit: Rugged Defense agreed to his wishes and removed his scenarios.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?


He does not have that right. Fair Use doctrine.




You don't know what you're talking about. COPYRIGHT and FAIR USE (while related) are two separate legal issues.

Taking a COPYRIGHTED scenario (such as those INCLUDED with the sale of TOAW), and then repackaging it and reselling it without proper licensing is a COPYRIGHT issue and is, of course, not a legitimate USE of those scenarios.

Taking an UNCOPYRIGHTED scenario that a person created for THEIR use and OTHERS uses (which is obvious that they do by posting them to be used FREELY), and then RESELLING those is problematic, but COULD be a copyright issue.

MODIFYING a scenario that a person created for THEIR use and OTHERS uses (which is obviously done when those authors POST their creations FOR FREE USE) falls squarely under the umbrella of FAIR USE and those authors do not have a leg to stand on if they cry foul when ANOTHER user MODIFIES their creation for their own and for others' FREE USE .... WITH or WITHOUT the original author's consent. If those MODIFICATIONS were then USED to SELL the modification, THAT would be problematic.

The modification of scenarios for the FREE USE by others falls squarely under FAIR USE.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 6/26/2021 1:50:57 PM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 21
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/26/2021 2:08:57 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1986
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Things like this make me wonder why anyone would even bother devoting large blocks of their life creating scenarios. Certainly is news to me that as an author you have no rights over your own creation.


It is "news" to you because you do not understand copyright versus fair use (or perhaps you are being deliberately obtuse AGAIN.

Authors DO have rights over their creations. They can not control the LEGITIMATE and FAIR USE of those creations, whatever they may be.

Stop creating these "issues" that you dream up and DELIBERATELY spread to knock this game and its FAIR USE.

You don't know what you're talking about.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 22
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/26/2021 2:29:34 PM   
Lobster


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FFS. No one is 'creating' anything. We are discussing the good and bad of modifying scenarios. The only one creating is you. Read the posts. Stop trying to start arguments.

It's good to know where the community stands on this to avoid stepping on toes. I needed to know so I can rework scenarios that don't seem to work right in TOAWIV.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/26/2021 2:35:18 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 23
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/26/2021 4:06:43 PM   
Lobster


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For people who don't understand why I started this thread there are many changes coming to TOAW. Bob mentioned leaders and hierarchy. That's just two. Those two alone will require scenarios to be updated if all of the features are to be implmented in them. So this subject needed to be broached. It's not argumentative as has been wrongly accused. It is meant to be a way to find out how the community feels about it. What is legal isn't always right. What is right isn't always legal.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/26/2021 4:07:09 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 24
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/26/2021 4:17:18 PM   
76mm


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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
You don't know what you're talking about. COPYRIGHT and FAIR USE (while related) are two separate legal issues.

Taking a COPYRIGHTED scenario (such as those INCLUDED with the sale of TOAW), and then repackaging it and reselling it without proper licensing is a COPYRIGHT issue and is, of course, not a legitimate USE of those scenarios.

Taking an UNCOPYRIGHTED scenario that a person created for THEIR use and OTHERS uses (which is obvious that they do by posting them to be used FREELY), and then RESELLING those is problematic, but COULD be a copyright issue.

MODIFYING a scenario that a person created for THEIR use and OTHERS uses (which is obviously done when those authors POST their creations FOR FREE USE) falls squarely under the umbrella of FAIR USE and those authors do not have a leg to stand on if they cry foul when ANOTHER user MODIFIES their creation for their own and for others' FREE USE .... WITH or WITHOUT the original author's consent. If those MODIFICATIONS were then USED to SELL the modification, THAT would be problematic.

The modification of scenarios for the FREE USE by others falls squarely under FAIR USE.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
It is "news" to you because you do not understand copyright versus fair use (or perhaps you are being deliberately obtuse AGAIN.

Authors DO have rights over their creations. They can not control the LEGITIMATE and FAIR USE of those creations, whatever they may be.

Stop creating these "issues" that you dream up and DELIBERATELY spread to knock this game and its FAIR USE.

You don't know what you're talking about.

quote:

You don't know what you're talking about. COPYRIGHT and FAIR USE (while related) are two separate legal issues.

Taking a COPYRIGHTED scenario (such as those INCLUDED with the sale of TOAW), and then repackaging it and reselling it without proper licensing is a COPYRIGHT issue and is, of course, not a legitimate USE of those scenarios.

Taking an UNCOPYRIGHTED scenario that a person created for THEIR use and OTHERS uses (which is obvious that they do by posting them to be used FREELY), and then RESELLING those is problematic, but COULD be a copyright issue.

MODIFYING a scenario that a person created for THEIR use and OTHERS uses (which is obviously done when those authors POST their creations FOR FREE USE) falls squarely under the umbrella of FAIR USE and those authors do not have a leg to stand on if they cry foul when ANOTHER user MODIFIES their creation for their own and for others' FREE USE .... WITH or WITHOUT the original author's consent. If those MODIFICATIONS were then USED to SELL the modification, THAT would be problematic.

The modification of scenarios for the FREE USE by others falls squarely under FAIR USE.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.


Considering how definitively you frame your response, I think that it would be appropriate to post some citations backing up your interpretation of copyright law, which frankly is rather different from mine.

In my understanding, a production is copyrighted as soon as it is put down in tangible form, no matter whether it was created for commercial use or created for personal use. Posting something on the internet does not mean that copyright is forfeited. Please post citations if you are contending otherwise, as you seem to be.

While it is true that it is more difficult to sue someone for copyright if that copyright has not been registered, that goes to the question of remedies rather than infringement, which is what we're discussing here. I think that everyone agrees that whether or not there is an infringement, it is highly unlikely that you'd end up in court, much less owe damages, for unauthorized use of someone's TOAW scenario, so at the end of the day remedies are not really relevant...

There are of course, exceptions. Creators can specifically waive copyright by explicitly putting their production into the public domain, etc.

Anyway, here are sources backing up my interpretation of all of this:
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
https://www.thebalancesmb.com/what-is-automatic-copyright-protection-3514945
https://www.thebalancesmb.com/creative-works-you-can-and-can-t-copyright-397822
https://www.newmediarights.org/business_models/artist/do_i_need_put_copyright_notice_my_work

So it seems to me that TOAW scenarios would in fact be subject to copyright, even if remedies might be limited. What about the Fair Use issue?
Fair Use is interesting, but to me it does not seem completely clear that this kind of use would necessarily constitute Fair Use. A Wikipedia article on Fair Use states that:
"...the noncommercial purpose of a use makes it more likely to be found a fair use, but it does not make it a fair use automatically.[16] For instance, in L.A. Times v. Free Republic, the court found that the noncommercial use of Los Angeles Times content by the Free Republic website was not fair use, since it allowed the public to obtain material at no cost that they would otherwise pay for. Richard Story similarly ruled in Code Revision Commission and State of Georgia v. Public.Resource.Org, Inc. that despite the fact that it is a non-profit and didn't sell the work, the service profited from its unauthorized publication of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated because of "the attention, recognition, and contributions" it received in association with the work."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

So while it seems that non-commercial use of a non-commercial product would have a good chance of being considered Fair Use, can you point to a source which states definitively that any non-commercial use of a non-commercial work would constitute Fair Use under all circumstances, as you seem to be suggesting? Honestly I doubt that there will be much case law on this, since as discussed on this thread, such cases are highly unlikely to end up in court...


< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/26/2021 6:04:50 PM >

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 25
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/29/2021 3:51:45 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2000
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: online
Much much talk.
My perspective is simply that there is no theft if all that is done an "update" that makes the scenario playable under TOAWIV. The designers can be glad that their work is still put to use and not just left to die.

In the end we can be glad that there are people left doing something for TOAWIV to keep it afloat.
The good times for scenario design and the designers themselves are long over. When was the last really REALLY outstanding scenario? No offense to scenario released in the meantime but that last that I see as such is Operation Neva, released originally under TOAWIII.

_____________________________


(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 26
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/29/2021 5:27:55 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13038
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
I see three levels of use:

1. Modifying a scenario just for personel use. Alway OK.

2. Modifying a scenario for posting on a public depository. OK, unless the original designer objects. Most who handle those depositories will respect the original designer's wishes.

3. Modifying a scenario for inclusion with a TOAW update. As I've said elsewhere, if the original designer objects, the moders must address his objections, if possible. I gave the example of the designers of FITE. They originally used Daniel's DNO map. He had given his permission. But, when he found out it was to be included with TOAW, Daniel being Daniel, he revoked that permission. Well, they had to redo the map so that the DNO parts were replaced with their own work.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 27
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/29/2021 9:01:03 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5881
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online
What happens if you modify the scenario to work with TOAW IV, update the counter art work (using new color file and for example my new counter icon images), add a picture, update the text and word doc (if any, and or fixing all grammatical errors and spelling errors of the original work and then updated for Word 2020 and even create a PDF for it) and of course give full credit to the original designers and then update the map with newer info, adding city names that were not known before or increasing the font using the new stuff in IV and changing the river names and water to use the new blue font's in IV and or add in things to that map that were no present in ACOW or TOAW III and but added to IV, and play tested the crap out of it, and then updated the OOB and then created a custom db equipment file for it and then play tested the crap out of it again and made more adjustments to make it playable with all these new changes for IV?

I have at least 20 of these types that I have modified...

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 28
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/29/2021 9:16:54 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5881
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online
Here is part of an example, I used web based colors schemes and added / updated the scenario text when I modified the counter fonts:

ATTRITION DIVIDER: 6

MAX ROUNDS PER BATTLE: 3

-- UNIT COLORS --

[ AXIS ]

GERMAN

High Command:
Black and Fire Engine Red on Olivine

Wehrmacht:
Black and White on Olivine

Panzertruppen:
Black and Sundown on Olivine

Waffen SS:
White and Black on Olivine

SS "Security" Forces:
White and Black on Black

OKH Support:
Black and Neon Carrot on Olivine

Heer Support; StuG, PzJg, Mot.MG:
Black and Gin on Olivine

Luftwaffe Ground, Air Landing:
Black and Columbia Blue on Olivine

Luftwaffe:
Black and Hawkes Blue on Light Steel Blue

Luftwaffe withdrawal units:
Black and Sail on Picton Blue

Kriegsmarine:
Fog and Martinique on Scampi

And then at the end of the file I added this:

CHANGE LOG:

Version 4.0
- 12/9/2020 - Don Lazov
- Updated and converted *NAME-OF-SCENARIO* to TOAW IV format
- Changed/Removed all unsupported German characters to the English version for TOAW IV

- Documentation
- Reformatted the scenario briefing
- Created a new Word and PDF document file
- Corrected all spelling and grammatical errors in briefing and document files and reformatted for clarity and any 4.0 version changes

- Counter modifications
- Created new color's file (*NAME-OF-SCENARIO*.col) that closely matches the original board game counters from *NAME-OF-ORIGINAL-BOARD-WARGAME-SCEANRIO-WAS-DERIVED-FROM*
- Modified some of the unit icons to fit with the new color file
- Modified some of the unit's icon symbols to utilize the new flat counter mod, (i.e. German Jager, all Assault Guns and Border Guards symbols)
- Used the flat counter mod and scaled that by 10 to use with the new color file

- New Supply Rules
- Adjusted all existing Supply Points for both sides to come into alignment with new TOAW IV supply rules
- Added new Supply Points to ports, airfields, and to Soviet replacement (%) cities

- Game Rules
- Added and adjusted the Attrition Divider and Max Rounds Per Battle

- TOE and data upgrades
- Updated the Slovkian Pifousek and Hungarian Mountain Brigade TOE's (original designer did not have access to Nigel Askey's data), and upgraded the Rumanian Panzer Brigade to the actual 1st Rumanian Armored Division and updated it's TOE correctly

- Map changes:
- Minor map modifications for road and rail lines (missing/added connections and various other errors in original design)
- Fixed missing borders
- Added some missing cities names
- Modified the map to use new TOAW IV map features as follows:
- Changed map text for all Nations to use the new larger sized fonts
- Changed map text for all rivers and lakes to use the blue font
- Added Finish No Move/No Attack line limit to map
- Added to the map the following new icons where appropriate:

FACTORY
OIL REFINERY
MAN POWER
OIL WELL
DIAMOND
CAPTIAL

* The color names used in the Unit Colors section is based off HTML CSS Color Picker

Version 3.7
- 8/30/2004 - Original scenario designer: *ORGINAL-SCENARIO-DESIGNER'S-NAME*
- Originally created for TOAW:ACOW 1.4

You could almost say that this version that I created is a vastly new creation, its like I found this really cool old 1969 Camaro that was left and abandon in an old Kentucky barn and left to rust, full of hay and bees nests. So I took it home, took it apart in my garage, rebuilt it from the ground up with new online parts, repainted and re-furbished it, tested it to make sure I get the fasted speed and handling on the track and wanted to show it off at the local classic muscle car show.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 29
RE: Fair Theft? - 6/29/2021 9:41:13 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4943
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
So did you source the ore, stamp the steel, manufacture or source every part, engineer the car, design the car from concept to finish, etc, etc, etc. Finding a rusting hulk has nothing to do with everything that went into building it in the first place. All you're going to do is bolt on stuff some of which someone else made also.

It's already been said if you can't get in touch with the guy that owned the rusted hulk it's fair game. Kind of like salvage at sea. But if someone tells you they don't want you messing with their scenario just make one of your own. Why would you if they told you they worked three years making it and they don't want someone screwing with it. What kind of person would do that?

Oh, and you take that car without permission, now that is a crime.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/29/2021 9:43:03 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 30
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