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Italy doesn't want to go to war

 
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Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 3:41:17 AM   
IIo4Tu


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it is already the summer of 1940, and Italy is still not ready. I see this for the first time, there is clearly some mistake, almost always it was ready for April, sometimes even earlier, but this is generally nonsense!

https://ibb.co/tmGwJyy

//I didn't understand how to insert pictures here, so the link to the file sharing site
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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 4:01:30 AM   
havoc1371


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That is strange. Usually, Italy will declare war the turn after you invade the Low Countries and France.

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 5:49:28 AM   
EarlyDoors


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Yes I thought it was either

1. Fall of Belgium
2. Allied manoeuvres around Syracuse

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 11:09:01 AM   
Illiniwek80

 

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Have you taken Paris yet? My security software does not like your link.

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 11:59:51 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Seems strange, maybe lack of LUX DOW matters? what is ITA mobilization?

But please, tell us more about the game. I see Indian paras (!), a tank and 2 paras heading to Sicily I assume. What's going on?

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 12:26:54 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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This does seem strange, please can you confirm which campaign you're playing, and if it is an official campaign or a modded one?

If you press L to look through previous events, can you see any that would impact on Italy's mobilization, either for or against?
Have the Allies been spending lots of MPPs on diplomacy?

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 1:28:54 PM   
IIo4Tu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

This does seem strange, please can you confirm which campaign you're playing, and if it is an official campaign or a modded one?

If you press L to look through previous events, can you see any that would impact on Italy's mobilization, either for or against?
Have the Allies been spending lots of MPPs on diplomacy?


This is an official campaign, without modifications. There were no special events, in this aspect of the game was standard, just from March to May, Italy was frozen at 80%, diplomacy on Italy was not used.

Luxembourg never influenced the mobilization of Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium captured back in 1939.

About the parachutists from India - this is some kind of clever idea from Cpuncher, it is necessary that he solved this mystery.
About the tank and paratroopers for Sicily - it's just my greed :)).

Please understand how this became possible, there should not be such a randomness, it breaks the whole strategy!

The link to the screenshot is clean, I have a Node and Avast do not swear, and the site has long been known to me.

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/23/2021 9:55:15 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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OK I looked at the scripts and did some hot seat testing, and this is what I found:
There isn't a script to automatically mobilize Italy until June 1, 1940 (I always thought there is one starting at the beginning of 1940). So if the Allies doesn't do anything, before 6/1/40, Italy only mobilizes when a country surrenders (3-5%), Axis capture Brussels (3-5%), or Axis has a unit next to Paris (5-10%). Anything else I missed?

In my game against IIo4Tu, he took Poland in 1 turn, which doesn't mobilize Italy. Only doing it in 2 turns or more does, so another reason not to take Poland in 1 turn. He didn't attack Denmark, or Luxemburg. Norway being a scripted event seems not mobilize Italy. There hasn't been a unit next to Paris either. So on June 7, 40, there has been 2 surrenders (Belgium and Netherland), capture of Brussels, and 1 turn after June 1. So there are a total of 4 events at 3-5% each. Italy starts at 65%. On June 7 it's at 89%. So there must be something else I missed.

Anyway, I think the main reason that Italy is not in war is Axis hasn't reached Paris, coupled with only 2 surrenders so far that counted.

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/23/2021 10:04:28 PM >

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/24/2021 6:32:28 AM   
EarlyDoors


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I do like the variations to gameplay that offers

I would imagine IRL the Germans never counted on the Italians to declare war on the French

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/24/2021 1:42:49 PM   
IIo4Tu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

I do like the variations to gameplay that offers

I would imagine IRL the Germans never counted on the Italians to declare war on the French


I do not agree, there should be certainty in key events, or the spread should be minimal +/- one move, since this greatly affects strategic plans

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/24/2021 2:19:59 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IIo4Tu


quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

I do like the variations to gameplay that offers

I would imagine IRL the Germans never counted on the Italians to declare war on the French


I do not agree, there should be certainty in key events, or the spread should be minimal +/- one move, since this greatly affects strategic plans


I do not agree with you. The best war plans are always subject to surprises. Where is the fun in knowing that events will absolutely/definitely happen at a certain date? I think it's good the game does blur this a bit. Wish it would do it more.

Axis strategy is greatly affected by Italy declaring war on France? Really? Do you think the German high command were sitting around a map, banging their fists on the table shouting 'where are the Italians! We need them for our victory!'




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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/24/2021 2:22:41 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Thanks for the explanations.

We've checked the scripts and from 1st June 1940 Italy will move 3-5% per turn, and as soon as it reaches 90% it will be boosted up to 100% and joining the Axis.

Additionally, from January 1940 if Belgium has surrendered then it will move Italy 3-5% per turn to the Axis.

It seems from other feedback that the Allies abandoning positions in the Med and/or preparing to invade Italy are quite common, but if these haven't happened in this game then those triggers won't apply.

As Italy joined on the 10th June 1940, overall it seems that their joining will just be a little late? Please let us know how it goes.



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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/24/2021 3:06:36 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Additionally, from January 1940 if Belgium has surrendered then it will move Italy 3-5% per turn to the Axis.



Thanks Bill. I guess I didn't see that this is for each turn, not a one-turn thing.

In our game Belgium surrendered at the end of 1939, so on June 7, 1940, Italy should have had either 5 or 6 of the above events, depending on if the script fires at the end or beginning of the Axis turn. Additionally there are 2 surrenders, and a possible 1 event of the June 1 1940 script (again, depending on if the script fires at the end or beginning of the Axis turn). So there could be either 7 or 9 of 3-5% mobilizations for Italy. Italy mobilized a total of 24%, so I guess it's 7 events. Still, that's very poor luck for IIo4Tu, as the average should have mobilized Italy 28%.

Since historically Italy joined the war on June 10, I think the current scripts are fine, as most of the time in the game Italy would have joined way earlier.

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/24/2021 3:41:44 PM >

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/24/2021 3:41:19 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


quote:

ORIGINAL: IIo4Tu


quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

I do like the variations to gameplay that offers

I would imagine IRL the Germans never counted on the Italians to declare war on the French


I do not agree, there should be certainty in key events, or the spread should be minimal +/- one move, since this greatly affects strategic plans


I do not agree with you. The best war plans are always subject to surprises. Where is the fun in knowing that events will absolutely/definitely happen at a certain date? I think it's good the game does blur this a bit. Wish it would do it more.



I guess this depends on what you are looking for in this game. If it's for a fun historical simulation, especially when playing against the AI, then the randomness is definitely a plus. But if it's a competitive game of strategy and tactics between 2 very serious players, you wouldn't want the randomness of the game to determine the outcome, would you?

You may wonder why Italy mobilization is so important here. Well, my opponent has planned to invade and capture Algiers before the fall of France, thus taking the whole France instead of just Vichy. If this happens, there would be too great of an advantage to Axis, and Russia would almost be guaranteed to fall later. He has set a significant force aside for this invasion, only waiting for Italy to join war. But Italy wouldn't... and this could bear huge impact on the outcome of this game.

The charm is both of us knew what is coming and what is at stake, for things 2 years down, without ever seeing it or talking about it. It dismays me too, when he couldn't execute his plan due to the randomness of the game.

So I think the best solution may be to create a separate version of the campaign for competitive MP play only, with randomness greatly reduced.

On a separate note, there is no way for Allies to effectively defend Algiers before Vichy. I wonder if there can be something done about it, or if we need a no attack on Algiers house rule for ELO games.


< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/24/2021 4:16:17 PM >

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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/25/2021 4:08:30 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

But if it's a competitive game of strategy and tactics between 2 very serious players, you wouldn't want the randomness of the game to determine the outcome, would you?


Absolutely not. If 2 serious players want to re-create history exactly as it happened they should be able to do so. Or read a history book. One of those.

quote:

He has set a significant force aside for this invasion, only waiting for Italy to join war. But Italy wouldn't... and this could bear huge impact on the outcome of this game
.

Let's get this straight. The players (who are serious) think Italy can make a huge difference in the game? How can your game rely on the decisions of Italy when they got everything wrong, unless history was changed - which you don't want because you are 'serious' historical players? Very confused about your argument.











< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 6/25/2021 4:30:37 PM >


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RE: Italy doesn't want to go to war - 6/26/2021 9:07:30 AM   
petedalby

 

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Surely if we want certainty we should be playing chess?

I like the variable factors. The Axis have not taken Luxembourg nor are they in contact with Paris - both of these things will increase Italian mobilisation I believe? So the solution is in your own hands.

As noted elsewhere - the biggest variable in this game is the weather which can have a major impact on your plans.

(in reply to wobbleguts)
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