Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Best Barbarossa scenario?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Best Barbarossa scenario? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 1:42:29 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1998
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
Gentlemen,
as tomorrow we have the 80th anniversary "Operation Barbarossa", what is the best Barbarossa scenario for:
A. Human versus Human
B. Human(German) versus AI(Russian)

At least under CoW it was pretty clear that McBride's DNO was the best for HuH by far, but is that still true for today under TOAWIV?

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 6/21/2021 1:45:28 PM >


_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 3:07:22 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1986
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
IMHO

for human v human, FitE1 or FitE2 (FitE1 is less daunting, but heavy favor Soviet I think

for human v Russian PO, either D21 or the Russo-German War. I think there was one before D21, cannot remember name.

DNO: wanting to give that one a go. Can't go wrong with a scene from DM!

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 2
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 5:10:12 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1998
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
I guess I should have been more precise. Operation Barbarossa is the part that the emphasis should lay on. Sure are FitE and D21 the once if you want to go for the complete East Front show, but Barbarossa isn't the schwerpunkt of these scenarios.

_____________________________


(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 3
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 5:16:23 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5787
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
Larry's B41 sure is a heck of a lot of fun.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 4
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 7:51:20 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I guess I should have been more precise. Operation Barbarossa is the part that the emphasis should lay on. Sure are FitE and D21 the once if you want to go for the complete East Front show, but Barbarossa isn't the schwerpunkt of these scenarios.


Hmm..and I was thinking D21.

Well, considering just Barbarossa I'd have to say DNO. Oldie but goodie.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 5
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 7:57:03 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5787
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
Oh, yeah forgot about DNO, I have a modified version I have been tweaking and fixing for TOAW IV.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 6
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 8:14:17 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
Nice. Are you going to post it on the new scenario area?

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 7
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 9:39:18 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1998
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
I remember we had someone some years back "updating" all MB scenario. Updating in so far that they were loaded and saved so that they were playable right away in TOAWIV. At least I have now Version 4.0, while officially 3.7 was afaik the latest.

A tweaked & fixed version would indeed be interesting, but here we have the same problem as back then. Discussion started if it was allowed to modify the scenario without the designers permission. Not sure if the thread was removed, at least I can't find it anymore.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 8
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 9:58:48 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
Yes there is something like that. The back of all the printed manuals said the scenarios were the authors property and they had copyrights. Probably still holds true. Forgot about that.

I know the FitE2 guys don't want people messing with their stuff unless they changed their minds. Maybe if you tried to get in touch with the original author and if you can't then do your own thing with it. Then give the original author credit in the briefing.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 9
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 8:01:12 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5315
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Yes there is something like that. The back of all the printed manuals said the scenarios were the authors property and they had copyrights. Probably still holds true. Forgot about that.


As I recall the original line from the manuals was that any scenario produced using the scenario editor was property of TakeTwo Interactive- with permission given only for personal use.

McBride actually ran afoul of that when he wanted to start charging for his scenarios back in the day. I have a suspicion he'd be vaguely hostile to people modifying his scenarios and then sharing them. As I recall, he tried to stop anyone else hosting them and actually had them removed from Rugged Defense et al.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 10
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 9:43:52 AM   
Simon Edmonds

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 5/10/2018
Status: offline
Slightly off topic. Big Duke 66. So many of the scenarios have been updated to that they would work on Toaw III and IV. But not so many have been changed to take advantage of the new game features. Europe Aflame still has a map of 160 x 150 hexes. With all of the increases to events, units, formations and hexmaps imagine what that could be updated to.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 11
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 10:11:35 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5315
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds

Europe Aflame still has a map of 160 x 150 hexes. With all of the increases to events, units, formations and hexmaps imagine what that could be updated to.


I'm sure it could be turned into an unplayable monster very easily...

The map limits were already 300x300 even in Volume I, but the designers of Europe Aflame chose to make the scenario at 33km/hex (if I recall correctly) and corps level. It's a lot more popular and well-known than a lot of scenarios which cover the European War with a bigger map and more units because it's very playable.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)
Post #: 12
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 11:15:39 AM   
Zovs


Posts: 5787
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Nice. Are you going to post it on the new scenario area?


Yes, in fact I have updated all those scenarios from that designer, including the word docs, and updated them to use new color schemes for the series.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 13
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 11:26:22 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
Volume 1 says all scenarios are property of Talonsoft. After Volume 1 that is removed. The below is removed in IV but if someone is really protective of their work and has the money I'm quite sure they could make a case of copyright infringement.

However, TOAWIII:
THE ENCLOSED SOFTWARE PROGRAM AND THIS MANUAL ARE COPYRIGHTED. ALL RIGHTS ARE RESERVED. THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER MAY PRINT OR HAVE A PRINT/COPY SHOP MAKE A PRINTOUT AND/OR COPY OF THE MANUAL. MATRIX PUBLISHING, LLC GRANTS THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER OF THIS SOFTWARE PACKAGE THE RIGHT TO USE ONE COPY OF THE SOFTWARE PROGRAM. YOU MAY NOT RENT OR LEASE IT, DISASSEMBLE, DECOMPILE, REVERSE ENGINEER, OR MODIFY THE SOFTWARE IN ANYWAY. ALL EDITORS MAY BE USED TO CREATE SCENARIOS THAT MAY BE FREELY DISTRIBUTED. ALL SCENARIO AUTHORS HOLD THE ULTIMATE RIGHTS TO THEIR DESIGNED SCENARIOS AND MATRIX PUBLISHING, LLC MAKES N OCLAIMS THEREOF. YOU MAY NOT COPY OR DISTRIBUTE COPIES IN ANY MEDIA FORM. ANY PERSONS DOING SO SHALL BE GUILTY OF COPYRIGHT VIOLATION AND SUBjECT TO THE APPROPRIATE CIVIL OR CRIMINAL ACTION AT THE DISCRETION OF THECOPYRIGHT HOLDER.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/22/2021 11:30:07 AM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 14
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 11:27:58 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Nice. Are you going to post it on the new scenario area?


Yes, in fact I have updated all those scenarios from that designer, including the word docs, and updated them to use new color schemes for the series.


Going to have to take a look at it then.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 15
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 12:17:37 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5315
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
..

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/22/2021 12:18:00 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 16
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 1:04:55 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
Has anyone tried playing Barbarossa Tactical? A Silvanski mod of a Piero Falotti scenario.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 17
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 2:50:53 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13025
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

I'm sure it could be turned into an unplayable monster very easily...

The map limits were already 300x300 even in Volume I, but the designers of Europe Aflame chose to make the scenario at 33km/hex (if I recall correctly) and corps level. It's a lot more popular and well-known than a lot of scenarios which cover the European War with a bigger map and more units because it's very playable.


All true of my Barbarossa scenario, too:

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/soviet-union-1941

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 18
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 2:59:38 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5315
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


All true of my Barbarossa scenario, too:

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/soviet-union-1941


It's a fun scenario. The thing about this one is that if you're in PBEM you could potentially run through several matches without necessarily getting sick of the thing. I imagine most matches of e.g. DNO end early because one player simply cannot face opening his turns any more.

From memory, vs. PO I find that (unsurprisingly) both sides are more or less a walkover for the human player. You'd want to look at some house rules for the human player to make it more of a challenge.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/22/2021 3:00:51 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 19
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 3:43:33 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13025
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

From memory, vs. PO I find that (unsurprisingly) both sides are more or less a walkover for the human player. You'd want to look at some house rules for the human player to make it more of a challenge.


For the Soviet PO in particular - too many kluges in the design required for them. But don't overestimate the skill of raw beginners. They need some easy ones.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 20
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 4:07:36 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1998
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
McBride actually ran afoul of that when he wanted to start charging for his scenarios back in the day. I have a suspicion he'd be vaguely hostile to people modifying his scenarios and then sharing them. As I recall, he tried to stop anyone else hosting them and actually had them removed from Rugged Defense et al.

That is new too me. When I asked him if he allows me to mod his Case Blue scenario with the intention of fixing some things I got his permission.
Hard to believe that he would have taken legal steps on others unless these would have played a dirty game like removing him from credits or so.


_____________________________


(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 21
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 4:31:05 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 22
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 5:25:52 PM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1431
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

From memory, vs. PO I find that (unsurprisingly) both sides are more or less a walkover for the human player. You'd want to look at some house rules for the human player to make it more of a challenge.


I’ve tried to remedy unbalanced PO games by inserting a TO for the player to add/delete PO formations. Along with liberal use of randomized PO objective tracks it seems to help, but then it’s one of those things you could spend a lifetime in test and adjustment.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 23
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 6:26:13 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5315
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


I’ve tried to remedy unbalanced PO games by inserting a TO for the player to add/delete PO formations. Along with liberal use of randomized PO objective tracks it seems to help, but then it’s one of those things you could spend a lifetime in test and adjustment.

Regards



For this particular scenario I was thinking:
For the Axis: units must have a certain colour status to allow them to attack or move into an enemy-controlled hex
For the Soviets: more complicated, but you'd want to require the player to operate on the offensive for the first x turns.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 24
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 6:28:00 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5315
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?


Yeah. There was no legal action though- he just asked scenarios to be removed and they were. For a while, he had his own page which was supposed to be the only place to get them, but I think he's lost interest in TOAW some time ago- last I heard from him directly was 2008.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 25
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 7:07:14 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5787
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
I just look at things differently. You can't really "copyright" a scenario per see. A game yes, but a scenario, give me a break. It's public domain, and if they abandoned it, then if someone comes along and tidies it up and actually fixes it so it works properly for a new version then more power to them.

Worse case scenario I can just rename them. I did all the upgrading, updating and TOAW IV fixes from the ground up not to mention the tedious hours spent in recoloring the counters and correcting the documentation.

Its a war game, its a scenario. No worries.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 26
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 9:31:00 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13025
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

For this particular scenario I was thinking:
For the Axis: units must have a certain colour status to allow them to attack or move into an enemy-controlled hex
For the Soviets: more complicated, but you'd want to require the player to operate on the offensive for the first x turns.

Neither of those really address the problems the Soviet PO has in it:

Factories need to be judiciously railed east in the nick of time after release via TOs. New Armies arrive as empty shells and are railed from Siberia to the front. The PO needs to hold them back from the front to give them time to disembark and build strength before entering the front lines.

Hard for the PO to handle any of that. I do release a few factories automatically, but not all.

Note that it's important that the scenairo be begun with the PO enabled. If enabled after the start, those factories won't be released, and the German PO will have to handle Soviet Cadres in its rear (something it can't do).

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 6/22/2021 9:59:55 PM >


_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 27
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/23/2021 7:59:29 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5315
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I just look at things differently. You can't really "copyright" a scenario per see. A game yes, but a scenario, give me a break. It's public domain, and if they abandoned it, then if someone comes along and tidies it up and actually fixes it so it works properly for a new version then more power to them.

Worse case scenario I can just rename them. I did all the upgrading, updating and TOAW IV fixes from the ground up not to mention the tedious hours spent in recoloring the counters and correcting the documentation.

Its a war game, its a scenario. No worries.


It's not a legal issue but an ethical one. If the designer says no, you can't mod my scenario, then it would seem to be unreasonable to ignore that and then distribute the results.

If, on the other hand, they're uncontactable (which will apply to most designers at this point), then I'd say have at it. Just make sure not to remove their credits from the briefing.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 28
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/23/2021 6:09:19 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1986
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I remember we had someone some years back "updating" all MB scenario. Updating in so far that they were loaded and saved so that they were playable right away in TOAWIV. At least I have now Version 4.0, while officially 3.7 was afaik the latest.

A tweaked & fixed version would indeed be interesting, but here we have the same problem as back then. Discussion started if it was allowed to modify the scenario without the designers permission. Not sure if the thread was removed, at least I can't find it anymore.

While it may be a nice gesture to "get" designer permission to modify their scenarios, it is not
"illegal" in any way. Fair Use Doctrine. The scenario police aren't going to come knocking on your door, and if they or Matrix or whomever tried to sue or enjoin you from doing so, they would be laughed out of (American) courts.

Source: law reader for over 20 years at Baron & Budd PC and Arter Hadden PC.

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 29
RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/23/2021 6:13:23 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1986
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?


He does not have that right. Fair Use doctrine.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Best Barbarossa scenario? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.397