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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mostly just pics)

 
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:45:15 AM   
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:45:46 AM   
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:46:14 AM   
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:46:45 AM   
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:47:13 AM   
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:47:43 AM   
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:48:36 AM   
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 3:49:15 AM   
Cpuncher

 

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Italian E Africa. Allies didn't commit much here until 41, and made the mistake of moving the Nairobi garrison away. The Italians stayed very mobile.




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< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/14/2021 4:01:46 AM >

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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 7:12:38 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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It seems Axis players just received a script how to win. Time to postpone any matches until new patch arrives.

On a more serious note, what do you think @Taifun did wrong? Opinion from your humble opponent would be most appreciated too. It seems he got maybe overly aggresive in North China, but at first glance nothing more serious. For example, I can't see if he could save France for at least 2 turns, maybe one. And that's with capital moved to Bordeaux, in normal terms France would be gone by April, so before even Germans declared war historically.

That NA disturbs me too, Axis moved insanely fast, as if desert was filled with highways, not sand. Tunis port was caught at 5?

Final question - what would you do against such optimized opening.

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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 7:37:26 AM   
IIo4Tu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

It seems Axis players just received a script how to win. Time to postpone any matches until new patch arrives.

On a more serious note, what do you think @Taifun did wrong? Opinion from your humble opponent would be most appreciated too. It seems he got maybe overly aggresive in North China, but at first glance nothing more serious. For example, I can't see if he could save France for at least 2 turns, maybe one. And that's with capital moved to Bordeaux, in normal terms France would be gone by April, so before even Germans declared war historically.

That NA disturbs me too, Axis moved insanely fast, as if desert was filled with highways, not sand. Tunis port was caught at 5?

Final question - what would you do against such optimized opening.


In France, it is more or less clear, you need to bring reinforcements from England, if you bring 3 units, plus do not spend money on engineers, then you can hold out until June. In addition, in this game, the earlier declaration of war on Italy did not help the Typhoon, because Cpuncher, as an experienced player, unlike me, did not panic, but carefully nullified this move

I have another misunderstanding, how he moved so quickly in China, I seem to do everything the same, but it turns out some kind of dull fuss

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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 8:06:42 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

if you bring 3 units,

About which units are you thinking? Some bought in the beginning of the game? AA guns? Corps? I usually build SF on 2nd turn, but it's not to help France, at least not directly. I am asking, because in his game against Fafnir he(Cpuncher) didn't like his decision to go all-in as France as Allies, if I remember correctly.

I see in this game Taifun also declared on ITA early, but in your game he had an immediate gain - 2 armies were sunk and NA could be rushed faster. Cpuncher, if I see well, didn't send troops across Gibraltar, maybe ships then? It seems so, because some French BB's are somewhat depleted in screens.

quote:

because Cpuncher, as an experienced player, unlike me

As I read Taifun's AAR, you seem to be very experienced or gifted. I played many opponents who had more than 30+ games and are nowhere as efficient in FRA as you in this game. End of cheap psychoanalisys.

Back on topic, it seems that Allies got into trouble because of being overaggresive? Both in China and NA, or is there more to the point?


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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 9:30:09 AM   
IIo4Tu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

quote:

if you bring 3 units,

About which units are you thinking? Some bought in the beginning of the game? AA guns? Corps? I usually build SF on 2nd turn, but it's not to help France, at least not directly. I am asking, because in his game against Fafnir he(Cpuncher) didn't like his decision to go all-in as France as Allies, if I remember correctly.

I see in this game Taifun also declared on ITA early, but in your game he had an immediate gain - 2 armies were sunk and NA could be rushed faster. Cpuncher, if I see well, didn't send troops across Gibraltar, maybe ships then? It seems so, because some French BB's are somewhat depleted in screens.

quote:

because Cpuncher, as an experienced player, unlike me

As I read Taifun's AAR, you seem to be very experienced or gifted. I played many opponents who had more than 30+ games and are nowhere as efficient in FRA as you in this game. End of cheap psychoanalisys.

Back on topic, it seems that Allies got into trouble because of being overaggresive? Both in China and NA, or is there more to the point?



Depending on the current capabilities, I build either an AA or a corps, and even the most experienced players transfer the army from Egypt to France, which also strongly insures against capture before June.

Well, as for my level of play, despite the success in France, I can not consider myself the same plan with the same Fafnir, Cpuncher, etc. of their level, somehow they manage to catch me even on small mistakes and calculate my actions in advance, besides, I still have not figured out all the details of the game, for example, I still can not understand how they kill China by the end of 1941

(in reply to Marcinos1985)
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 4:28:02 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

what do you think @Taifun did wrong?

Tunis port was caught at 5?

Final question - what would you do against such optimized opening.


In general I felt Taifun was very off balance in this game, or his style of play just doesn't work well against mine. I know I gave him a rough handling, and the frustration might have affected his decision making...

I believe early DOW on Italy, though tactically a great success, is bad strategically. Yes I got 2 ITA BBs, 1 CA, 1 CL caught in the open and sunk. The 3rd BB also got sunk when I tried to do something to relieve Tobruk port. However, I didn't lose any troop transport (unlucky for IIo4Tu), and had enough ITA forces near French border. The Italians immediately crossed the border (way ahead of the Germans) and killed the strength 3 FRA Corps defending Lyon (ran out of AP and couldn't capture it). The Allies can not afford to lose any of the 2 southern NM cities, and had to constantly scramble units to deal with the pressure there, which threw his northern defense into disarray. Of course this can be somewhat fixed, as Taifun learned from my game and made it a lot more difficult for IIo4Tu. However, if I were the Allies, I know my entire France defense plan would be in trouble, if the Italians could come immediately from the south...

Then there is the huge issue of Algiers. In my game, I didn't attack toward Algiers with INA troops. I was under the impression that, if France was captured in whole instead of Vichy, significant US mobilization would occur. Turned out there is no such thing. There is only penalty if Axis refuses Vichy and continues the war. If the Axis can ship 1 or 2 Corps into NA before the ports got shut down, or send GER paras to help, then Algiers would fall quickly, causing the loss of the whole France eventually. This would be too great of an advantage to the Axis.

Tunis port was captured at 2, but I sent in a Panzer to be unloaded the next turn (post #46). With the entire Luftwaffe nearby I doubt any Allied ships would venture there, and this would be the riskiest move I'd ever do. The rest would come in through Tripoli later.

In my own hot seat testing the Allies can hold France till Jul-Aug if committing the 2 units from Egypt (except the HQ), the Malta AA, and 2 built AAs. The Allies can hold a bit longer if committing significantly more, but this would be too detrimental to other Allied efforts. I haven't been able to hot seat the Russian campaign based on an August fall of France. Based on past experience I would say Germany would still most likely win there before US can come to Europe in force. However if the Russians were to made strong enough to resist the Germans, then the Axis would not have much chance to win, as the US will eventually become too powerful to handle. So there is a dilemma here. I would suggest for game balance purpose, it may be worthwhile to make Russia a bit stronger, and have a lot more alternative capitols, but make the US industrial power weaker. This way there maybe close to 50% chance for all evenly matched player levels, and not so deadly focused on Russian Campaign alone, allowing more diverse strategies.

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/14/2021 5:34:17 PM >

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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 5:29:04 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

That NA disturbs me too, Axis moved insanely fast, as if desert was filled with highways, not sand.



Well, Taifun didn't send a 2nd HQ to NA until too late. Without HQ boosting, his units all had very poor supply and took him too long just to clear Tobruk. He never sent the full strength AUS HQ, and I don't know why. Then the Germans arrived just in time to meet the allied main forces in Cyrenaica. This game doesn't allow much chance to retreat, as retreating units are often caught and destroyed easily. The Allies never could set up a proper defense, which would require time and space. Also there is like only 1 turn of bad weather. Not to mention Manstein is such a killing machine. This is the first time I actually saved Iraq...a less talented but more conservative player would have performed better...again, I feel Taifun lost some patience and was constantly scrambling, which only made things worse.

(in reply to Marcinos1985)
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 6:13:34 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IIo4Tu

... how he moved so quickly in China, I seem to do everything the same...



Well, China is a study of perfecting moves... You didn't move your Kimura HQ immediately to Nanchang... Also don't move any un-upgraded unit into a plain next to any Chinese army...use shift-swapping a lot. In general, don't rush, prepare your units thoroughly first before sending them to battle.

In my game, Taifun made many mistakes. Normally I wouldn't be able to move that fast. His northern incursion resulted in the loss of an army, but more importantly, the time and space needed to set up the defense around Chengchow. He then pulled out of Chengchow way too early. For China, the more units you can make the Japs have to kill in or around Chengchow, the better. With both his 2 AAs in the south, I was able to move toward Sian, Lanchow faster than ever...BTW, build the JAP Mech Inf as soon as you can. It can help tremendously. I learned that from Fafnir. Heavy Artillery actually is not that useful.

(in reply to IIo4Tu)
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/14/2021 7:53:12 PM   
IIo4Tu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher


quote:

ORIGINAL: IIo4Tu

... how he moved so quickly in China, I seem to do everything the same...



Well, China is a study of perfecting moves... You didn't move your Kimura HQ immediately to Nanchang... Also don't move any un-upgraded unit into a plain next to any Chinese army...use shift-swapping a lot. In general, don't rush, prepare your units thoroughly first before sending them to battle.

In my game, Taifun made many mistakes. Normally I wouldn't be able to move that fast. His northern incursion resulted in the loss of an army, but more importantly, the time and space needed to set up the defense around Chengchow. He then pulled out of Chengchow way too early. For China, the more units you can make the Japs have to kill in or around Chengchow, the better. With both his 2 AAs in the south, I was able to move toward Sian, Lanchow faster than ever...BTW, build the JAP Mech Inf as soon as you can. It can help tremendously. I learned that from Fafnir. Heavy Artillery actually is not that useful.



Thank you for your recommendations, I will continue to master the features of the game, although I would still like to see a variety of routes to achieve victory, rather than try to push only in the Russian direction with all my might

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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/15/2021 12:24:39 AM   
Elessar2


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In China I noticed that you were pretty laissez-faire with anti-partisan garrisons, but that didn't seem to slow you down at all (I saw a couple of cities below 5). I need to playtest if any cities "downstream" of porked cities (via road and/or rail) also see their supply drop. If that is NOT the case, then Hubert needs to put in a LOT more spawning partisans (vs. supply porking ones), if the latter are just a minor inconvenience that one can brush aside, not worrying too much about the meager MPP losses involved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher





I see that Yenan is at 3, Chengdu at 4, but Tianshui is at 6, which means your final thrust is still supplied. No partisan event for Tianshui so you can leave it unoccupied. That right there is why China is such a relative pushover-if the Japanese really had tried to push like people often do in this scenario, more than half their troops would be forced to constantly patrol behind their own lines just to kill all the partisans that would be popping up just to keep their supply at just mediocre levels while avoiding a lot of MPP losses.

I count 24 supply reducing partisan events in China, and a pitiful 4 spawning partisan events. That's much too low, esp. in the south & west, esp. in terms of spawning ones. You need 17 covering units, which as I've said in the past may include HQs or air, and while the campaign is in doubt you can get by with quite a bit fewer. I also notice that Mao's capital doesn't have any at all.

(in reply to IIo4Tu)
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/15/2021 6:57:09 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

In my own hot seat testing the Allies can hold France till Jul-Aug if committing the 2 units from Egypt (except the HQ), the Malta AA, and 2 built AAs


A little surprise. For sure (? look below) WDF and this corps will die in France. What do you bring to NA then? Indian troops? There are also SA and AUS corps, but against ITA armies/GER DAK this may be too little.

Generally you leave UK troops to die and shield Paris in process, or maybe operate them to French ports - Brest/Nantes/Bordeaux to piss GER off? This is usually irritating for GER, but is it really worth it is another matter.

quote:

However if the Russians were to made strong enough to resist the Germans, then the Axis would not have much chance to win, as the US will eventually become too powerful to handle. So there is a dilemma here. I would suggest for game balance purpose, it may be worthwhile to make Russia a bit stronger, and have a lot more alternative capitols, but make the US industrial power weaker. This way there maybe close to 50% chance for all evenly matched player levels, and not so deadly focused on Russian Campaign alone, allowing more diverse strategies.


Yes, game seems so centered about 1941-1942 and is a matter whether US can intervene or not. It'd be nice to see some change of pace.

Talking about pace, SC:WaW is really a fast game. Campaigns that IRL took years here last several turns. As if map didn't reflect distances very well. It's especially felt in USSR, China and NA. Part of problem seems to be supply system. Where IRL both sides scrambled for food/ammo/fuel, in SC:Waw you place HQ and problem is fixed. Keeping units at supply level 6-7 is really not that hard. But what is more, even in low supply, what is the penalty? 1AP less. This matters sometimes, but if you lose 1 point out of 6, you are really not that much slower.
Scale of the game will not change in this iteration of course. But capping supply more and making it more impractful, both for readiness and movement, would not only be more feasible, but also more realistic.

quote:

BTW, build the JAP Mech Inf as soon as you can. It can help tremendously. I learned that from Fafnir. Heavy Artillery actually is not that useful.

Could you elaborate bit more? Mech is good for solving 'ZOC puzzle', but without armored warfare it seems to be a bit suboptimal. Maybe it's still worth it. But what about arta? I see it very often on Axis side and it usually does the job somehow. Though I'd probably pick med bomber.


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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/15/2021 8:07:33 AM   
Taifun


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It was quite an experience to play Cpuncher. Thanks for your time
I was outfought tactically and strategically for the whole game.
I decided to Attack Italy when I saw that I could destroy a big portion of the Regia Marina. But the problem was my south front in France that was attacked immediately by the Italians and I could barely hold the 2 key cities: at the end France fell way to soon and it was a disaster for my planning. It was all a question of time, as I wanted to capture Libya fast. The garrison defending Tripoli was very resilient and I could not take that city, even tough I attacked with all my carriers several times, I was very frustrated. I did have 2 HQs in Libya but I mismanaged the capture of Tobruk and Benghazi, that took too long. China was a mess as I started with 2 big errors: a nonsense offensive in the North and a mismanagement of my engineers in the first turn. The JAP Mech Inf was a pain in the ass! a game changing unit!
I learned enormously in this game and perfected my strategy that I used again in my game against IIo4Tu.


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(in reply to Marcinos1985)
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RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/15/2021 1:06:42 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2
In China I noticed that you were pretty laissez-faire with anti-partisan garrisons...


Yes I don't do much about the partisans. Most of the supply reducing partisans don't happen frequent enough to warrant the cost of a garrison. For the whole China campaign, I build the 3 garrisons from Nanjing, and maybe 1 or 2 additional JAP garrisons, an investment of 200-250 MPPs, mainly to keep at least 1 rail line secure, the mines safe, and no partisan spawns.

I suppose increasing the partisan activity can be helpful in making the China theatre more historically accurate (I can also think of a couple other ways). Currently the map is already quite busy with partisan events, so I think we can make the supply reducing ones happen more frequently, and change half of them into unit spawning ones.

(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 80
RE: Taifun (Allies) vs Cpuncher 1939 Campaign V1.11 (Mo... - 6/15/2021 1:42:19 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985
What do you bring to NA then? Indian troops? There are also SA and AUS corps, but against ITA armies/GER DAK this may be too little.

I will bring the AUS HQ and Corps, and Indian troops. The FRA Engineer can build 2 forts if you hold France long enough. Together with the many scripted units spawn, you can easily hold against the Italians, but will lose if the Germans come (who will only come after the fall of France...). If you hold France long enough, then the Germans in NA will not reach Middle East soon enough to apply pressure to RUS from the south.

quote:

... or maybe operate them to French ports - Brest/Nantes/Bordeaux to piss GER off? This is usually irritating for GER, but is it really worth it is another matter.

This is only helpful when early attack on Russia is allowed, with the current ELO rule, it's probably not worth it, but wouldn't be bad if the Axis player was not expecting it.

quote:

... Part of problem seems to be supply system...But capping supply more and making it more impractful, both for readiness and movement, would not only be more feasible, but also more realistic.

I agree the supply system can be made even a bit harsher. HQ boosting needs to be tuned down still a bit more, and scorched earth needs to make sure resources can only be captured at max strength 4 (including ports), no matter how high the original strength is. I think the impact of low supply on readiness and movement is sufficient, though.

quote:

...Could you elaborate bit more? Mech is good for solving 'ZOC puzzle', but without armored warfare it seems to be a bit suboptimal. Maybe it's still worth it. But what about arta? I see it very often on Axis side and it usually does the job somehow. Though I'd probably pick med bomber.

The Mech doesn't need armored warfare. It's value is its 5 AP and Inf Weapon upgrade. It can cut enemy supply or with shift-swap bring units into otherwise inaccessible position. In the past I used to build 1 or 2 JAP heavy artillery, but not any more in recent games. With my improved movements and the Mech, I can take China just as fast. I generally don't use arti much in the whole game anyway.

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/15/2021 2:47:12 PM >

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