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Norweigen liberation - 6/13/2021 6:03:04 PM   
DavidDailey

 

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In a game I am currently playing as Allies, I invaded Norway in 1941. After capturing Bergen and Kristiansand I captured Oslo in the summer. Norway liberated. Except it wasnt. Everything north of Oslo is still Axis controlled. Two isolated garrisons in Trondheim and Narvik enable the Germans to use all of northern Norway for their purposes, for subs and airplanes to interdict my convoy routes to Russia. Could somebody explain the rationale for this?
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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/14/2021 9:35:22 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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Hi David

When liberating a country, the whole of that country has to be recaptured from its previous occupiers. This is a universal rule as otherwise it could lead to some very odd situations, e.g. the Allies liberate Paris and all Axis forces are removed from France.

This is different to when a country surrenders because then the surrendering power does transfer authority to the conqueror.

I hope that makes sense?


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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/14/2021 12:20:51 PM   
DrZom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

This is different to when a country surrenders because then the surrendering power does transfer authority to the conqueror.



Also when allied forces (UK) are present in a country that surrenders (France) those allied forces do not disappear. So when a country surrenders only that country's forces disappear, correct?

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/14/2021 1:27:20 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidDailey

In a game I am currently playing as Allies, I invaded Norway in 1941. After capturing Bergen and Kristiansand I captured Oslo in the summer. Norway liberated. Except it wasnt. Everything north of Oslo is still Axis controlled. Two isolated garrisons in Trondheim and Narvik enable the Germans to use all of northern Norway for their purposes, for subs and airplanes to interdict my convoy routes to Russia. Could somebody explain the rationale for this?


It makes perfect sense. When Norway surrendered the government put their hands up and stopped all resistance. Hence their units are all disarmed and Germany are now the occupying power. The allies can liberate parts or all of Norway by destroying/chasing the Germans out, but the Germans won't surrender if Oslo is taken back because they take their orders from Berlin.

When you think about it, if the rules for a national surrender applied to the invaders as well, no-one would actually be able to invade anywhere. eg, at the start of the war, Norway has control of Oslo etc. That would mean any invading Germans would just disappear when they set foot in Norway.

Hope this helps.


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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/14/2021 3:05:03 PM   
DavidDailey

 

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No it doesn't help and it makes no sense. Historically, if Oslo had been recaptured the isolated German units throughout Norway without supply would have fallen very quickly, regardless of whether they had vowed to "fight to the last bullet for the Fuhrer". And the Germans certainly could not have operated planes to northern Norway. Why can't the rules for liberation be like the one for conquest? The territory is returned to the original power. Occupying forces are not destroyed but they only control the spaces they are on. When France falls British units only control the spaces they occupy but they are not destroyed. Makes sense to me. Any foreign unit should control the space they are on and nothing more when a country surrenders or is liberated.

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/14/2021 3:31:18 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidDailey

No it doesn't help and it makes no sense. Historically, if Oslo had been recaptured the isolated German units throughout Norway without supply would have fallen very quickly, regardless of whether they had vowed to "fight to the last bullet for the Fuhrer". And the Germans certainly could not have operated planes to northern Norway. Why can't the rules for liberation be like the one for conquest? The territory is returned to the original power. Occupying forces are not destroyed but they only control the spaces they are on. When France falls British units only control the spaces they occupy but they are not destroyed. Makes sense to me. Any foreign unit should control the space they are on and nothing more when a country surrenders or is liberated.


Again, liberation is different from Conquest. A country can't be truly liberated until all occupation forces are destroyed/pushed out. When you liberate parts of a nation, isolated enemy units cut off from supply etc will suffer and die if they can't improve their position. They won't surrender because you take the capitol.

Your 'historical' argument is just an opinion and not based on history at all. Historically, Oslo and Norway were not liberated by the allies. Norway was liberated when the German troops surrendered their weapons (having been ordered to do so by the German high command) - after the 1st German surrender. There was no allied invasion force.

So, the problem is not historical inaccuracy. Rather, it's why these German units in Norway keep on fighting when you think they shouldn't be able to do so (because they are isolated and out of supply). Are these units really out of supply? Are they based near ports? Have you been able to check any of their supply levels? Maybe they are still getting supplies from elsewhere?





< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 6/15/2021 10:50:26 AM >

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/16/2021 3:24:41 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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As an example, playing as the US I have just re-taken the Philippines. Congratulations to me.

However, as you can see there is a lone Japanese unit in the south (in a port) despite the fact Manila etc are in US control.

As I have forces next to this unit, I can see they are still in supply (look at the bottom of screen shot). That means they can still do naughty things.




So I still need to rid myself of this nuisance despite the fact I have liberated the capitol. Does this help?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 6/16/2021 3:29:14 PM >

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/16/2021 8:55:58 PM   
boudi

 

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After the liberation of Paris and sometimes to the German capitulation, there was still German pockets in France, ready to fight if attacked : Dunkirk, Lorient, Saint-Nazaire...

< Message edited by boudi -- 6/16/2021 8:56:44 PM >

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/16/2021 9:15:03 PM   
DavidDailey

 

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So let me get this straight. After you destroy that unit at Davao you will need to go to Cebu and Legaspi and Jolio and every other square in the Phillipines you haven't touched to liberate them. Because, after all, Corporal Yashimoto and his five samurai have vowed to hold out and "Die for the Emperor" rather than surrender. And by the way just how is that unit on Davao being supplied? Stealth sampans from Tokyo?

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/16/2021 9:21:05 PM   
DavidDailey

 

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The German units holed up in the Fuhrer fortresses in France controlled only the immediate areas they held and nothing else.

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/16/2021 9:57:32 PM   
DrZom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidDailey

And by the way just how is that unit on Davao being supplied?


My understanding is that it is no longer BEING supplied. However it still has the supplies left over from the last turn and will lose one supply point per turn because it has two units adjacent. Isn't that how it works?

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/17/2021 12:22:16 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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Again, conquering a nation is different to liberating it. A nation is conquered when the government surrenders and orders it's forces to stop fighting. That's it. End of story. Conqueror wins it all!

However, when a nations capitol is liberated things are obviously different. Yes the capitol is free and the nations government restored, but any enemy units that remain in that country take orders from their own government. They will not automatically surrender, even if they are out of supply. Of course if these units are actually cut off and out of supply, they will quickly suffer attrition loses as you would expect. The question is...are they?

You lump liberation and supply into the same complaint. Let's break it down and take a look at liberation.

In your opinion, when the capitol/major objectives are liberated the enemy units remaining in the country should just surrender.

In the real world, when Paris was liberated, German forces continued fighting in Eastern France. When Brussels was liberated, German forces continued fighting in the South and East. etc etc.

Your idea that these enemy units should just vanish when capitols are liberated doesn't make any sense. Historically fighting continued. According to your logic the battle of the bulge could never have happened because Brussels had been liberated already. Clearly this is nonsense. Please separate supply from capitol liberation. Your problem is understanding enemy supply.

Response to your latest post


quote:

So let me get this straight. After you destroy that unit at Davao you will need to go to Cebu and Legaspi and Jolio and every other square in the Phillipines you haven't touched to liberate them.


Basically yes.

quote:

Because, after all, Corporal Yashimoto and his five samurai have vowed to hold out and "Die for the Emperor" rather than surrender.


Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Problem is it did happen. That mad Corporal Yashimoto of yours would indeed gather some men and tell them to fight on rather than surrender. The Japanese were famous for this - the last 2 Japanese soldiers surrendered in 1974! repeat - 1974!. One of them had been hiding in (guess where) - the Philippines jungle the other in New Holland. So, yes Corporal Yashimoto and his five samurai might very well vow to hold out and "Die for the Emperor" rather than surrender. That is historical fact.

quote:

And by the way just how is that unit on Davao being supplied? Stealth sampans from Tokyo?


I dunno. Canoes? Maybe they stole all the locals fish. Or maybe they were ordered to stash supplies by your Corporal Yashimoto and have a big stock pile. Who knows?

Anyways. I destroyed them already so they are taken care of.

Hope this helps.


< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 6/18/2021 9:39:50 AM >

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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/17/2021 2:26:01 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidDailey

No it doesn't help and it makes no sense. Historically, if Oslo had been recaptured the isolated German units throughout Norway without supply would have fallen very quickly, regardless of whether they had vowed to "fight to the last bullet for the Fuhrer". And the Germans certainly could not have operated planes to northern Norway. Why can't the rules for liberation be like the one for conquest? The territory is returned to the original power. Occupying forces are not destroyed but they only control the spaces they are on. When France falls British units only control the spaces they occupy but they are not destroyed. Makes sense to me. Any foreign unit should control the space they are on and nothing more when a country surrenders or is liberated.


Hi David

The difference with a liberation might be best explained with a hypothetical (although plausible) example.

France is under Axis occupation and D-Day has been launched.

The Allies take Paris and this liberates France.

Now, if this then automatically led to every hex unoccupied by Axis forces coming under Allied control, it could include lots of hexes behind the Axis' front lines. Suddenly German units in eastern France may find themselves cut-off and at very low supply, having to recapture hexes that had suddenly changed ownership to the Allies, including some on or very close to the German border.

This would be all encompassing, and while a certain amount of this could be considered realistic, there was French partisan activity after all, a wholesale transfer of territory wouldn't be and could lead to more frustration.

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 6/17/2021 2:29:06 PM >


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RE: Norweigen liberation - 6/17/2021 2:32:18 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Another thing to bear in mind is that when a country surrenders, it is normally a formal process whereby a government orders its troops to lay down their arms and cease the struggle, hence the whole country transfers to enemy control.

However, when a country is liberated there is no formal process like this, the liberation itself is just one battle out of a continuous sequence of battles, as the liberators march from one place to another, driving out the occupier.

I hope that makes some more sense now as to why there is a different process for a surrender to a liberation?

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