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A missing example. - 6/13/2021 2:01:43 PM   
HOTEC

 

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The 2nd paragraph of 13.3.2. states that "If the requirement is exceeded, it is possible that the player will trigger events granting them addition Administrative and Victory Points as well as delaying progress in that particular campaign (see section 40.3 for an example of what this means in practice)." There has no example given in 40.3. 40.3 is the list of events under Italian Campaign. If this example is given, it must be educational.
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RE: A missing example. - 6/13/2021 3:20:29 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HOTEC

The 2nd paragraph of 13.3.2. states that "If the requirement is exceeded, it is possible that the player will trigger events granting them addition Administrative and Victory Points as well as delaying progress in that particular campaign (see section 40.3 for an example of what this means in practice)." There has no example given in 40.3. 40.3 is the list of events under Italian Campaign. If this example is given, it must be educational.



sounds correct to me, the link is to an example. 40.3 contains the Italian events and they can move back or forward depending on how well the axis meet the garrison requirement. Or am I missing the point you are making?

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RE: A missing example. - 6/13/2021 5:24:06 PM   
HOTEC

 

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I expect to get some answers from the example as follows:

a) Most of the likely start dates happen to be in between turns. I would like to see that the event is triggered on turn 99 or turn 100 for instance.

b) The Ground Requirement is CV base. I have no idea on Air Requirement of 55 referring to what (i.e. the number of engines or the number of aircrafts disregarding their types or specific type of aircraft such as fighter for air defence).

c) Naval of 5 means 5 Cargo or Transport ships or what is it.

d) It specifies of 5 for Naval but no intensity setting. What is the loss? Or, simply, naval is ignored.

e) The intensity of Low, Medium or High means loss. How would they generate the loss? Is there a way to maintain 176 CV after the loss so that VP and AP can be earned?

f) If I consistently maintain 176 CV after the loss for ground, 56 (whatsoever) for air and 6 (whatsoever) for naval every turn, can 1 AP and 1 VP be earned for every turn?

g) Is it an "and" or "or" condition for 3 requirements?

h) The 4th paragraph of 13.5 is particular interesting that "The events related to shortages or excess of forces in a theatre affect the later events. Each air or naval gain or loss will move the timeline by 1 day (in the appropriate direction), each land gain or loss will move the timeline by between 4 and 7 days". I guess that "gain or loss" may refer to the win or loss of a battle. I expect the example showing how to make battles.

From 40.1 to 40.10 in Section 41 are lists of events. I would surprise that 40.3 is an example.




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RE: A missing example. - 6/14/2021 8:02:51 AM   
tm1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: HOTEC

The 2nd paragraph of 13.3.2. states that "If the requirement is exceeded, it is possible that the player will trigger events granting them addition Administrative and Victory Points as well as delaying progress in that particular campaign (see section 40.3 for an example of what this means in practice)." There has no example given in 40.3. 40.3 is the list of events under Italian Campaign. If this example is given, it must be educational.



sounds correct to me, the link is to an example. 40.3 contains the Italian events and they can move back or forward depending on how well the axis meet the garrison requirement. Or am I missing the point you are making?



Hi Loki

Just want to follow up on @HOTEC's question with one of my own on the Events lists in Apendix K ( list of events )

it might be a bit off subject with his original post, but i would like to ask about Moscow and if there is any events relating to the capture of the city.


Looking at the events format if Leningrad is captured you at least get a small chance of getting Finnish troops.


After looking through every list in Appendix K and in particular the Soviet section I see no extra benefits for Germany.

OK I know the German capture of Moscow gives a lot of points plus bonus points and its a National Supply Source, so the Soviets will certainly take a hit there for a while.


But its not a knockout blow in fact you could take both Leningrad and Moscow as the Germans and still lose eventually given time.

A suggestion for a possible Moscow capture might be a manpower ( multiplier ) and or ( National ) morale reduction or some
political benefit.

Something that would hit them hard losing there Capital.

Just a suggestion

regards






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RE: A missing example. - 6/14/2021 9:22:26 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tm1
...

Hi Loki

Just want to follow up on @HOTEC's question with one of my own on the Events lists in Apendix K ( list of events )

it might be a bit off subject with his original post, but i would like to ask about Moscow and if there is any events relating to the capture of the city.


Looking at the events format if Leningrad is captured you at least get a small chance of getting Finnish troops.


After looking through every list in Appendix K and in particular the Soviet section I see no extra benefits for Germany.

OK I know the German capture of Moscow gives a lot of points plus bonus points and its a National Supply Source, so the Soviets will certainly take a hit there for a while.


But its not a knockout blow in fact you could take both Leningrad and Moscow as the Germans and still lose eventually given time.

A suggestion for a possible Moscow capture might be a manpower ( multiplier ) and or ( National ) morale reduction or some
political benefit.

Something that would hit them hard losing there Capital.

Just a suggestion

regards



You're perfectly right, there is no particular effect for Moscow but it is effectively game over for a few reasons:

1) 66 VP is a large bonus
2) if you are adjacent to the city it is still a NSS but with a lot less capacity. If you take it, it ceases to be a NSS. Now Soviet logistics with a 6-7m man army are a stretch when you pass over the 1941 borders. And that is drawing down from Moscow. If your core NSS is now Saratov you are pretty much doomed to low movement and lots of supply problems (greater range and Saratov isn't a very large railyard).
3) it had a lot of stored supply that could be readily drawn down, you are now having to operate much on a produce-use cycle.

The issue of conditional events has come up a few times so here's a partial answer.

a) in a previous life I sorted out the event chains for AGEOD's Pride of Nations (a work of genius with ambitions well beyond the capacity of the game engine to deliver). That has a lot of branching and conditional events. Simply writing such things so they technically work is quite a challenge, not least making sure the trigger is what you think it is. Making them work in the context of an evolving game is even more tricky.
b) PoN had the safety net of some core game design concepts. Since it tried to model 19C diplomatic norms, actual territorial transfers in Europe were very rare, so basically even a badly lost war left the losing state intact (it might have seen some regions become independent) even if its economy was ruined. So it made sense to include events to trigger Germany's shift to an active colonial policy sometime around 1875-1880 (and then to mirror these into the Austrian event chain if they had won the battle for supremacy in Germany). WiTE2 tends to lack this safety net.
c) So we need to be careful about events that give knock on effects but are conditional. We can test the fixed NM changes, the fixed manpower allocations etc in almost any game (& a self running AI-AI is useful as it will show up if anything is really wrong). The mere conditionality makes such testing a lot harder and the risk of distorting game play to reach a given goal and that the knock on is even more severe than planned.
d) in PoN you could amend an event during a game, so if it really didn't work as intended redo it and test it again. In WiTE2 the events, like the map and OOB are loaded and fixed at the game start - so if one goes wrong you can't correct as you go.

Which is a hugely long way of saying that in the pre-release design, the Leningrad-Finns is unique as a conditional event. They are scarcely game changing, you might even want to send some back to the Northern Theatre to shore that up if the Soviets reinforce their side (as Finnish manpower resources were utterly constrained).

The capacity for conditional events is there and in tandem with the VP system could produce some interesting variants - in many ways far more 'political' than the base game.

It might be possible to produce an official 1941 scenario that has these bits with a warning that it could snowball very badly, more likely I suspect it'll be a mod that can be adopted.

Roger



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RE: A missing example. - 6/14/2021 3:01:53 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10149
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HOTEC

I expect to get some answers from the example as follows:

a) Most of the likely start dates happen to be in between turns. I would like to see that the event is triggered on turn 99 or turn 100 for instance.

b) The Ground Requirement is CV base. I have no idea on Air Requirement of 55 referring to what (i.e. the number of engines or the number of aircrafts disregarding their types or specific type of aircraft such as fighter for air defence).

c) Naval of 5 means 5 Cargo or Transport ships or what is it.

d) It specifies of 5 for Naval but no intensity setting. What is the loss? Or, simply, naval is ignored.

e) The intensity of Low, Medium or High means loss. How would they generate the loss? Is there a way to maintain 176 CV after the loss so that VP and AP can be earned?

f) If I consistently maintain 176 CV after the loss for ground, 56 (whatsoever) for air and 6 (whatsoever) for naval every turn, can 1 AP and 1 VP be earned for every turn?

g) Is it an "and" or "or" condition for 3 requirements?

h) The 4th paragraph of 13.5 is particular interesting that "The events related to shortages or excess of forces in a theatre affect the later events. Each air or naval gain or loss will move the timeline by 1 day (in the appropriate direction), each land gain or loss will move the timeline by between 4 and 7 days". I guess that "gain or loss" may refer to the win or loss of a battle. I expect the example showing how to make battles.

From 40.1 to 40.10 in Section 41 are lists of events. I would surprise that 40.3 is an example.

...


I'll see how much of this I can answer

a) the turn dates vary according to the scenario start date, you'll notice that Stal-Berlin has a different game turn dates to the campaign. So the event notionally occurs in the week that captures the set date, far more use than using a game turn (which is conditional)

b) can't answer any better than to use the information in 36.12.3 of the manual?

c) I'm not sure what you are referring to here, the naval setbacks/gains only occur in conjunction with the N Africa events and I think key off naval air committed to the relevant theatre boxes

d) as above

e) in effect its purely done as attrition with those variables feeding in, you can see the impact in the logistic logs (also see 13,3,1)

f) no, see 13.3.2, its a random chance, if you are say 5% under you are more likely to get a negative event than if you are 5% over and to get a positive event. Bigger the gap, higher the chance.

g) its usually specified which if any are 'and' or 'or' in the syntax. That is mostly reflected in the language used in section 40.

h) you don't 'make battles' in the Theatres, see (e) above

well yes, we wanted to show a list of one of the event chains, I picked Italy at random as it purely contains theatre box interactions.


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RE: A missing example. - 6/15/2021 2:45:58 PM   
HOTEC

 

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As a layman, I just want a simple answer: how many units are needed to be transferred to the Western Europe in order to meet the requirements for Ground (570), Air Day (270) and Air Night (75) as an example shown in the attachment. Grateful, if the question from a) to e) regarding the information on those numbers may be answered.

I find that many ground units have set the max TOE less than 100. What is the merit of it?





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